Welcome to the Advanced Tech Podcast. Joining me today is Jameson Lopp, Bitcoin philosopher
laureate, professional cypherpunk and co-founder and CTO of CASA. Welcome Jameson.
Great to be back.
Cool. So yeah, we've spoken before and I will link that episode in the show notes. So for
the audience not familiar with your journey, how did you get into Bitcoin?
Well, it was a number of years ago, but essentially I heard about it on some random tech blog,
probably Slashdot or something. And I know that I dismissed it several times before I
actually started looking at it because I figured, oh, this thing's going to get hacked. Everybody's
going to lose their money. And why should I bother spending any time on it? And eventually
after it, oh boy, after it kept coming around, I started looking into it. And when I read
the white paper, that was when I realized that this was something special. And you know,
once I really started thinking about money and thinking about, you know, money as a open
source project, I felt like it aligned with a lot of my philosophies. And it was also
interesting to me from a computer science standpoint. And it all just kind of slowly
escalated over the years from that point. And I started working on some side projects,
just trying to better understand it. And after several years, venture capital started coming
into the space and I realized I was spending so much time doing Bitcoin related stuff that
I might as well just get paid to do it full time. And that's when I joined BitGo and spent
several years working on infrastructure for enterprise Bitcoin security. And then a couple
years ago, made a slight pivot and have been working on a similar type of security problem,
but rather focused on individual private key management. And that's really what we've been
doing for several years at Casa now, just trying to help people help themselves be more
sovereign and really take advantage of everything that Bitcoin offers. But up to this point
has been very difficult to do. There's been a high learning curve and a lot of possible
pitfalls where you could shoot yourself in the foot and end up, you know, with a catastrophe.
Fair enough. So before we dig into some of these things we're going to be talking about,
I'd like to get your thoughts on why Bitcoin's value proposition is different from money.
Well from fiat money or, you know, money that is issued by central banks and governments
and all of that. I mean, the main difference is what I just touched on a little bit in
that with Bitcoin, we've created this open collaborative project where anybody who wants
to can contribute and can basically voice their opinion of what they think the properties
of this thing should be. And I believe that, you know, money is an abstract concept that
doesn't really belong to anyone. And so it makes sense that it should be an open collaborative
project. But the money as we have known it for hundreds of years now has been defined
by small groups of authorities who in many cases decide what the properties of the money
are in closed door sessions. And whatever they decide, that's what we have to put up
with. There hasn't been a whole lot of choice or a whole lot of input that the average person
can put into it. They're just told to use whatever, you know, by their government. And
generally the government, you know, uses their laws and their force to say, you know, you
have to accept this piece of paper or this money that we're issuing in return for any
debts. You also have to use this to pay your taxes. And so, you know, they can basically
force adoption at a large scale through those various mechanisms. But with Bitcoin, with
cryptocurrencies, this is a much more voluntary type of thing where we're not going to get
a whole lot of adoption unless we can offer something that is superior to the market.
So I think like in general, the incentives are much more aligned and also it just seems
to be a more fair type of system because it's more inclusionary than exclusionary. Great.
Very well put. Yeah. And the days of the money printer going burr with many other Rs. Yeah,
I think that's important to point out as well that there's scarcity, there's actual value,
actual work behind and, you know, there's really strong game theory backing Bitcoin.
Yeah. I mean, everyone likes to talk about the scarcity, but at a really high level,
like there is nothing in Bitcoin that guarantees scarcity. Rather, the quote unquote guarantee
that we have is due to, like you said, the incentive alignment in the game theory. It's
that it is so highly unlikely that a sufficient threshold of people will come together to
say, oh, we should just inflate the money supply to bail out X, Y, or Z entities. It's
almost guaranteed that that's not going to happen just because the incentives aren't
there. Whereas if you have a small group of people who probably have their own personal
connections to various insider interests, that type of arrangement like we see with
central banks that are tightly connected to governments that they're essentially working
for, it's much more likely that you have, you know, large scale bailouts printing, debasement
of the currency, and of course, basically changing of interest rates and such on a whim,
which also affects, of course, the creation, the ebb and flow of the money supply. So there's
a lot of knobs that these bankers can turn and they kind of turn them willy nilly because
it's all just a grand experiment. I don't think anyone really knows what's going on.
The main guarantee that we have in a more open system where it's harder to make changes
is that it's going to be somewhat more predictable as to what happens in the future as various
shocks come into the system.
Cool. So we've talked about your background. I'd like to get into kind of what you're working
on and what's new.
So for the past couple of years, you know, we've been continuing to try to decrease the
technical complexity and the learning curve that is required to be climbed by someone
who wants to put themselves into the ultimate self custody solution where you can be confident
that you can store large amounts of value on your own without having to rely on trusted
third parties or custodians. But it's not just that you're confident that an attacker
won't take your money. It's that you also need to be confident that you won't make a
mistake that will cause you to lose money. You also need to be confident that if you
get hit by a truck that your heirs will be able to recover the money. And each of those
things tends to be progressively more difficult. Like it's very easy to make sure nobody can
get your private keys, you know, just throw them away and nobody will get them. It's somewhat
easy to make sure that attackers can't get to your keys, at least online by just using
hardware devices. But then, you know, how do you protect against all of these edge case
events, any number of loss vectors, physical attacks, natural disasters, the list goes
on and on of things that can happen that can cause the data to be destroyed or lost. And
then finally, when you get to the sort of issue of, well, I want only me to be able
to access my keys unless I have died, then, you know, allow a certain other people to
access them. That starts to straddle a really weird line where it can be, you know, difficult
to keep these conflicting things in sync, as it were. And so we have spent, you know,
innumerable hours thinking through all of these edge cases and developing fairly complex
threat models that we've published to our website. And the result of which is then we
start to build software based upon those threat models. And the software that we've built
is very user friendly. It's literally a mobile app. So it's as easy to use as any other mobile
app out there. However, this is a multi layered solution where the actual security of the
keys is ensured by using dedicated hardware devices and keeping them geographically separated.
And in some cases for inheritance using other pieces of like a legal system and well known
estate planning procedures and processes. And while it's all very complicated under
the hood, we we just put a really nice user interface design on top of it. And essentially
what it comes down to is the user just follows the instructions on the app. And that basically
guides them down the path of best practices of what we have put together with years of
research in the security space. And in my case, like seeing many different catastrophes
happen over the years where, you know, even in a well architected system, even in multi
seg systems, it's possible to have single points of failure if you're not really careful.
And at single point of failure can still result in catastrophe. So I think we've made a lot
of great progress there. And we're seeing a lot of demand for it, especially as you
know, Bitcoin is maturing, as the people who are using Bitcoin are maturing, they're going
through life events, they're starting to think about, you know, more longer term things where
it's not just, oh, I have this Bitcoin investment and it's cool, it's done well. Now instead,
we're thinking of it from a generational planning type of thing of, you know, this Bitcoin has
been around for 10 years, the longer it's around, the more likely it's going to stay
around. I need to start thinking, well, maybe Bitcoin will be around for so long that I'll
actually be in a position where, you know, I want to hand down my Bitcoin inheritance
to my children type of thing. So that's an exciting new frontier to get into.
Very cool. So before we get into, let's see, before we get into your site, and you've got
a really amazing site on Bitcoin resources. And I think that's one of the things that
I quote all the time. It's well laid out, it's easy to navigate depending on your level
of where you're at with Bitcoin and your Bitcoin journey. I'd like to get your thoughts
on the current COVID pandemic right now.
Well I guess it's kind of scary. You know, I've been in quarantine myself for about two
weeks because I was traveling. I went to the MIT Bitcoin Expo. I heard recently that supposedly
there was somebody who was there who tested positive, but I didn't get any specifics.
But you know, in general, I was avoiding handshakes and all of that. So I think that I am okay.
But you know, more worried, of course, about the older people in my family and making sure
they understand the seriousness of the situation. But it's also just been fascinating to watch
people on Twitter, you know, especially in the Bitcoin community, there's a lot of people
who are very adversarially minded. And there's also a lot of people who prepare for edge
cases, as it were, and seeing how those people are reacting. Of course, there's a whole spectrum
where some people are probably taking it a bit too far. But this is a type of situation
where it is better to over prepare, I think, than to do too little and then end up having
a much more outsized negative effect. But it's especially interesting and I guess the
prepper type of mindset to see how some of those people are reacting. You know, this
is definitely not an apocalyptic scenario. I think this will all be under control, whether
it's a matter of weeks or months. That's the real big question. But you know, I don't think
that we're going to have, you know, people starving in the streets type of thing, because
all of the supply chains are completely disrupted. But it has been more interesting, I think,
on the economic and financial side, the this major shock, you know, we've seen that a huge
sector of the economy, which is, of course, services based, is basically reliant upon
people going out and about and doing things, going to restaurants, going to retail shopping,
et cetera, et cetera, how quickly that whole sector has collapsed, you know, how many millions
and millions of people lost their jobs almost overnight. And, you know, how the rest of
the economy and governments, et cetera, are reacting to that is especially interesting
to watch. And as the people with the money printers see a problem that they think can
obviously be solved by printing more money, this may be a situation that is good for Bitcoin.
Perhaps that's because the money printing happens. I think it's more likely that it's
because it becomes so obvious to the rest of the world who are now stuck at home watching
the news, watching all of these things happen, and, you know, watching the value of their
money go down as a lot of the money that's getting printed is not even going to them
but is going to other special interests that probably don't deserve it as much or need
it as much.
Yeah, it's interesting to see how that it's a potential path to hyper Bitcoinization and
not to downplay the tragedy of what's going on. But you're right, there's a lot of really
interesting things happening in the market. And really people sitting home, they're in
a position where they can take the time to, you know, dig into, you know, big existential
questions like what is money and what is value and, you know, especially as they're kind
of being challenged to work remotely versus going into an office for people that are in,
you know, they're able to do that. And of course, for people that, like you mentioned,
are in the services industry, maybe it's getting them to think, you know, what are they going
to do next?
So one of the central themes that I'm seeing on Twitter is there's kind of a, it's a binary
decision, either safety or sovereignty. So I wanted to get your thoughts on how you can
survive this pandemic while maintaining your personal liberty, essentially what you can
do to be safe and sovereign.
Well, you know, part of it depends on which country you're in in the first place. You
know, we've even just today, I think, been seeing more data coming out of basically individual
tracking of people via their mobile phones. And like that type of stuff also depends a
lot on what country you're in. You know, when I've looked into mobile phone privacy and
SIMs, for example, in a lot of countries, there is a strong requirement to have, you
know, AML KYC basically on your mobile phone, your SIM card. And of course, that can make
it very difficult, if not impossible to travel around and do your normal daily life without
being tracked with your geolocation to a very, you know, very precise level.
At least in America, we don't have that, but it's still very difficult. You have to go
out of your way to get a SIM that isn't tied to your identity just due to the way a lot
of the phone carriers operate. So there's that tracking aspect. There's just, you know,
working from home now, you know, are you going to be tracked online with all of your activities?
I think a lot of people don't even employ basic privacy with their internet usage, you
know, whether it's ad blocking or using VPN or whatever. But it's a very broad topic,
I guess. I've seen a number of interesting memes where there's a weird conflict of like,
well, you know, those of us who are rational and are keeping track of this whole thing,
it's generally okay. And most people will be fine with quarantining themselves voluntarily,
you know, to help the greater good of society, you know, to help prevent the spread of this
pandemic. But then, you know, once the government starts to tell you, you have to do this, then
you almost sometimes get that urge to go against it just because it's like, hey, you know,
I was willing to go along with this voluntarily. But, you know, hopefully that doesn't turn
into the same level of, I guess, crackdown that we've been seeing in some countries like
China, Italy, for example, where I mean, I've seen a number of people and I'm sure Mir talked
about this as well of just like, when the government really cracks down on your physical
movements, then you get into all these weird edge case situations of like, well, you know,
this person has like a medical necessity and they need to go get some sort of supply. But
they also have this other, you know, mobility issue that makes it difficult for them to
do that. And can I go help this person? And then you have to, you know, you have to start
getting permission to do everything and government bureaucracy slows everything down. And, you
know, that can easily result in harm coming to people who are in certain edge cases that
didn't get thought through. And it's not a fun situation. I don't know. There's no, I
think, one size fits all solution to it, other than, you know, hopefully, you know, if people
have prepared somewhat in advance, then you're already well stocked up so that you don't
need to go out and get necessary supplies for a while. I mean, you know, even the United
States government has various guidelines that I believe they generally recommend everyone
has several weeks of food and water and etc. And I think one of the problems that happens
a lot when we're talking about this type of stuff is that, you know, you've got the doomsday
prepper like TV show type of over the top mentality of like the people who do nothing
but prep and they spend their entire lives focused on that. And then you've got, I think
most people who basically only have a few days, maybe a week worth of supplies in their
house and they're used to having to go out and top up very often. But then you've got
people I think more like myself who, you know, I'm moderately prepped. I believe I could
handle at least like several months of disruption before I started having to be more creative
about my lifestyle. But it's very, it's difficult to have a discussion in that type of level
of thing because you're kind of stuck in the middle and you've got the extreme preppers
who just kind of look down on everyone else. And then you've got the normal folks who only
see everybody else as some sort of extreme prepper. And then you have to start having
all these discussions about whether prepping is hoarding or whether or not like you're
harming other people by stocking up on supplies, etc, etc, etc. And so, you know, I think that
the best way to avoid all that discussion is to, you know, quietly be prepping when
there is no disaster. But then you have the folks like myself who were like, well, I'm
not doing anything different because I was prepared for this years ago. And then the
people who weren't prepared get really upset. They're like, hey, you don't need to be saying
I told you so at this point. And I'm like, well, I mean, I was telling everyone for years,
and it actually reminds me a lot of kind of like my journey through Bitcoin, where for
the first few years, I was going around evangelizing how amazing this new system was to all my
friends and family and coworkers. And they generally dismissed me as a lunatic. And,
you know, maybe 1% of them actually believed me and bought into it. And they actually are
glad that they did. But everyone else now is just like, oh, I can't believe you didn't
try harder to get me to, you know, be interested. And I was like, I don't know what you want
me to do. I felt like I did everything that I could. And, you know, it's in your hands,
you know. I informed you the responsibility and the decision was in your court. And it's
the same type of thing, I think, for any type of issue where we're talking about self-sovereignty
is that the natural result of self-sovereignty is more responsibility. It means that you're
taking more risk, you know, into your own hands, but also that if you're the one who
is managing those risks, then hopefully you'll end up with a better outcome than if you're
trusting somebody else to manage them. Because if they drop the ball, that could be catastrophic.
And really what I think in like a situation like this, or like just talking about prepping
for edge cases in general, it's that you have to realize the fragility of the systems that
we've built that over a long enough timeframe, there will be stress events that cause breakdowns
in the system. And I think something I tweeted recently was basically to the effect of, you
know, if 5% of people get extremely sick and require intensive care, then our entire medical
system gets overwhelmed. And a lot of people then will not be able to get any care and
will die even though normally they would have been able to have been saved. If like 10%
of the links in our supply chains completely break, then the supply chains will be so screwed
up that a lot of people will stop being able to get food and will starve after days or
weeks because in general, most of the supplies, the perishable goods in our system are on
like a three to five day type of wait time. Like the supermarkets are constantly restocking
because they know that they can get these things so quickly. So when the supply stops
coming in, they run out extremely quickly. And similar thing with the banks of, you know,
if 5% or 10% of people come to the bank and request, you know, physical cash for their
balance in the bank account, then the bank is going to run out of money, at least until
the money printers can catch up with their infinite level of printing. Bank runs can
also cause major stress in the system and it doesn't require even anywhere near a majority
of people to go in and start stressing the system in order for it to break down. And
it's because the systems have evolved to be highly efficient rather than highly robust
and reliant. And this is basically like the exact opposite of Bitcoin where Bitcoin is
designed not to be highly efficient. It's actually designed to be highly inefficient
because it's prioritizing robust, reliant redundancy. And that's, you know, one of those
things I think throws a lot of people for a loop.
Yeah, we're so used to convenience and everything being, you know, if you've got to wait more
than a few seconds for a webpage, forget it, you're on to the next tab. So I think for
our listeners that are just kind of realizing this, I think the people in the Bitcoin space
and kind of at the edge of tech are familiar with this. But for people that are hearing
about things like, you know, the fact that our supply chains are fragile and that money,
you know, you might not be able to get all of the money out of your bank account, which
is for some of our listeners and viewers, probably the first time that they're hearing
of that. Without causing panic, because I'm sure some people are like, what? They're asking
themselves some hard questions. What are some of the things that they can do to make them
themselves? And I guess the systems that they interact with a little bit more resilient.
Well unfortunately, a lot of it comes down to your perspective and spending time thinking
about, you know, what would happen if blank stopped working? What would happen if my bank
stopped working? What would happen if my grocery store stopped working? You know, what are
the things that I am incredibly reliant upon and how can I make sure that I have alternatives,
you know, backup options in place? And the way that I basically describe this to my friends
and family is that it's where, you know, normally people think of buying insurance as a completely
logical thing. You know, there's always an edge case that your house might burn down
or there might be like a torn or whatever. And we don't know what the specific percentage
likelihood of that happening actually is, but there are experts out there, you know,
these actuaries who deal with that. They make money by figuring out that risk and quantifying
it and then selling us a product with a slight markup on it so that it protects us. It also
protects them because they're making profit that otherwise would be kind of out of reach
for most people to handle. But what if you need insurance for other events where an insurance
company may not even if it happens? That's when you have to start thinking about-
I'm going to interrupt you for a second. We're starting to cut out. I'm just going to close
some tabs and then let's- Sure. I can hear my fan going in the background.
That's never a good sign. Close my editor. Good. All right. I think we should be in a
better spot. So from the top. Well, so we were talking about, you know,
alternative forms of insurance. If you get into a situation where you can't just have
an insurance company bail you out, you know, what if there's a food supply issue and there
is no food bank insurance that is available? You know, you need to think about these things
and differing grades of like risk and possible consequences. And so, you know, the likelihood
that there is maybe a several day event where you run out of water and power and utilities
and stuff is reasonably likely to happen in your lifetime, you know, depending on your
geographic location. And so, you know, pretty much everybody should be prepared at least
for that level of catastrophe, natural disaster or what have you. What is the likelihood
of, you know, some sort of edge case economic events happening? You know, those seem to
happen several times per generation. So it makes sense that you should have some backup
assets that are outside of the traditional financial system. You know, don't put all
of your eggs in one basket. Keep some hard assets, whether that's, you know, precious
metals or cryptocurrencies, what have you. You know, it obviously doesn't have to be
everything. We're just talking about diversifying portfolios essentially. So just like you want
to diversify your financial portfolio, you should diversify your food portfolio. You
know, while I have like multiple stages of food preparations, some of which are more
short term, some are more medium term of food you wouldn't want to eat unless you were in
a survival situation. And then you've got your long term of, well, if everything really
hits the fan, then I need to be able to grow my own food. So, you know, I've got like a
seed vault essentially for that type of stuff. And so, you know, having these multiple different
levels of preparations for different events of different likelihoods is basically the
way I approach any of these things.
That's a good idea. And I'd also like to just stress there for people that, again, are hearing
this for the first time that they might need to, you know, be a little bit more self reliant.
You're talking about edge case scenarios and varying levels of risk and how you can protect
in the extreme versus, you know, the slightly inconvenient, which I think it's good to think
about all of those scenarios, because you're right, we're probably not going to have no
multiple day disruptions where there's power and water cut off, but maybe we will. And,
you know, I certainly feel for people in third world countries where that's a common theme.
I think we're relatively lucky and privileged to be in the first world where we have relatively
reliant systems, which is great. But just because we have that now doesn't mean that
we will always.
Well, and it's also, it's kind of weird because in some of these disaster type scenarios,
the people in the third world countries might actually weather them better because they
are used to these stressors on a regular basis and they probably already have plans and alternatives,
you know, ways to handle those events. But the people in the first world countries that
are more reliant on these more fragile services may have a tougher time dealing with the loss
of those services.
That's a really good perspective. Yeah. Again, coming down to that core resiliency and you
know, like anything, it's a muscle that you build up over time and you're not going to
be, you know, the super survivor like in a week, but maybe a year. Right. I'd like to,
as we close out the episode, talk a little bit about your Bitcoin page, your site and
your Bitcoin resources and Lightning resources for people that don't know this and they're
hearing it for the first time. What can people find there? What's new? And could you tell
us, I guess, just a little bit more about it?
Yeah. So this is one of my many projects. I think this one dates back to around 2014
or 2015 when I first started just bookmarking as many Bitcoin resources as possible because
like I said, I was coming around, I was evangelizing Bitcoin, I was running local meetups, et cetera,
et cetera. And people would message me and it would usually be the same types of questions.
In order to save myself time, I would just start bookmarking resources so that I could
send them the links and wouldn't have to search everything out. And then eventually over the
years that got to be more and more onerous and people started asking, you know, wider
variety of questions. And eventually I got to the point where I was like, you know what,
I should just take the bookmarks and put them on a page and then tell people to go to the
page. And so now I've actually got an easy to remember domain. It's just bitcoin.page,
which will take you directly to my educational resources. And at the moment, I want to say
there are over 500 different linked URLs and resources there. And I think I've, on the
Bitcoin side, I've had to break them out into many different categories. I think there's
several dozen categories now in sub pages. And essentially these are what I believe to
be the most reputable, high quality resources for almost any topic under the sun with regard
to Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is a very multifaceted diverse ecosystem. Nobody is interested in
Bitcoin for the same reason as everybody else. Everyone brings their own perspective to it.
You may be interested from the financial perspective, the ideological perspective, or you might be
interested in just trading it, or you might want to develop things on top of it. You might
be more on the technical side. So we've got, we've got something for everybody at bitcoin.page.
And it is a project that I am constantly updating, you know, as some sites die off, as new sites
come on, as people come to me and say, Hey, check out this new resource. If it's reasonable
quality, I put it on there just so that it's easier for people to find. And I hear a lot
of people come to me saying, you know, I send all my friends to that site and I'm just hoping
that it provides an easier experience to onboard into the ecosystem because ultimately it has
to be a choose your own adventure type of thing, you know, based upon your own perspective.
And so we've got the getting started section, but you know, after that, you can, you can
basically fall down the rabbit hole into any number of sub rabbit holes as it were.
Awesome. Well, make sure that we include that in the show notes and links below. And then
also on your homepage, I noticed that there's a few new projects that are there. Are you
right? Can you talk a little bit about that? Well, whenever I start working on something,
I just add it in there. What have I got? I mean, I've got my physical attack log of keeping
track of people who are getting like physically robbed for Bitcoin. Most of the time that
is happening for people that are doing face to face trading. That's one of the more dangerous
activities. What else do we have? There's several projects. Let's see. And I'm always
adding more. My oldest one is actually Satoshi, which is my fork of Bitcoin that's been running
since about 2014. The Bitcoin savings plan is actually ripped off from somebody else
long ago. That was a project that someone stopped maintaining. And so I picked it up,
but it was basically like an idea of how to sell your Bitcoin in a way so that you always
have some left. You never sell it all. I got some highly technical stuff for developers.
Something that I think more people will be interested in is the metal seed storage stress
tests. And that's me buying every seed phrase backup device on the market that I can find
and putting it through the wringer to see which ones are most likely to survive various
disaster scenarios. And then we've got, I think the newest one is actually my, I guess
you could kind of call it like a shod and fraud project. It's the U.S. Marshall's Bitcoin
auction tracker. And that's basically looking at all of the hundreds of thousands of Bitcoin
that were seized and sold by the U.S. Marshalls over the years and how much that would be
worth if they hadn't sold it.
Well, I'm sure that people will be very interested in knowing the value and seeing the value
of the Bitcoin change over time as well. I know that's one of the things that people
always ask is, what's the current price of Bitcoin? And I think by asking that, they're
kind of missing the point. But it is interesting to look at the value of the asset go up and
down over the years and starting as fractions of a penny to where it is now.
Well, it's ultimately just a lagging indicator, I think, of sentiment and belief in the robustness
of the system. And sometimes it can get overheated, but that's what everyone's getting excited
about what's going to happen with the halving this time. And I remember the excitement around
the first halving, nobody really knew what was going to happen. And then a similar type
of thing with the second halving. And then some people on the opposite side who are saying
things like, oh, there's going to be a minor death spiral, et cetera, et cetera. And similar
type of thing happening this time around. And it's because nobody really knows. It's
a big question of, well, is the cycle going to repeat itself in terms of price action
or has the fact that the cycle already repeated itself and now a lot of people want it to
repeat itself actually going to make sure that it's not going to repeat itself. But
there's a lot of people who are making predictions who are probably going to end up looking kind
of silly after it's all over. But that happens every time.
Fair enough. Right. As we close out, I wanted to ask if you have any questions or parting
comments for our audience? Questions for the audience. Well, since they
can't actually answer, it's tricky, right? But in general, I think the biggest question
that I have for most people is, do you actually think about that money that's in your pocket
or do you just use it because it's given to you? Do you think this is something that you
should have control over how it operates or are you happy with everything as it is? And
if you're not happy with the state of the financial system and how it's all tied in
to the nation states, then you have an option and you can opt out. You can join the rest
of us in trying to create a better system. There's no guarantees that it'll be better,
but I think the incentives are better aligned. Awesome. And then again, we'll include links
below, but where are the best places for people to find you online or your content online?
Well, everything that I have ever done, all of my articles, my presentations, my interviews,
it's all on lop.net, L-O-P-P dot net. And the only social media network that I spend
much time on is Twitter and my handle there is just LOP. Awesome. All right. Thanks, Jameson.
I appreciate your time. It's interesting times we're living in and it was great getting
your perspective on some of the basic things that people might be dealing with and just
the rational approach that you always have. I appreciate that. My pleasure. Thanks for
having me. Thanks a lot.