GM, good morning. Welcome to the Milk Road Show, the daily crypto show that knows your best trades
were made after two beers and zero permission. I'm your host, Jay Hamilton. It's Monday,
April the 14th. The China versus US trade war continues. We will see what happens throughout
this week. Now, if you're listening to this show, there's one thing I do know, despite all the
uncertainty in the macro sides. One thing I have certainty on is that you hold Bitcoin and you
likely hold Bitcoin in self-custody. Or if you don't hold in your self-custody, then you probably
hold it in a centralized exchange where they hold a lot of Bitcoin. And today's episode is all about
risk. Risk of two things. One, the risk to your personal Bitcoin. And two, the risk to Bitcoin in
general as a result of quantum computing and some old Bitcoin that is held in some old wallets. And
what that could mean as quantum computing improves, it could become at risk. We're going to dive into
all that. Now, this is some nerdy, nerdy stuff, guys, but it is so, so important that everybody
pays attention to this because if you don't pay attention to this, then the future of Bitcoin is
at risk. And that is no joke. And I know we all take that seriously. So today we're joined by
Jameson Lopp, Bitcoin advocate, co-founder and CTO at Casa, which is a company that specializes in,
you guessed it, Bitcoin security and self-custody solutions.
Without further ado, Jameson, welcome to the Milk Roadshow.
Good to be here.
Pleasure to have you. First, I've got to ask who, who had the beard first, you or Jack Dorsey?
I'm pretty sure it was me. That was funny to look back over the years and watch both of us,
like get the, the stripes of gray coming out in our beards.
Well, you certainly have one of the most legendary beards in the space. I've tried,
I've tried to do what you do. And it just, I can't, I can't pull it off, man. So kudos,
shout out to you. I just want to start quickly before we jump in. Can you give a short background
on yourself? You've been in the space and working in Bitcoin for a long time, longer than most. Can
you give us an idea of your background and what role you play in the Bitcoin ecosystem?
Yeah, I'm a computer scientist by trade. I first started playing around with Bitcoin in 2012,
because it kept coming up on the various nerdy news sites like Slashdot and started some free
open source projects where I was just trying to better understand Bitcoin. And that helped me start
to gain a reputation for, you know, thinking deeply about and trying to help other people understand
Bitcoin. So I ended up going full time a little over 10 years ago, worked for BitGo and managed a fair
amount of their infrastructure for several years. And then did a very small pivot to co-found Casa,
where I took a lot of what I learned at BitGo doing multi-sig self custody for enterprises and trying to
help bring the best practices to individuals. And as of today, Casa, you can essentially think of us as a
Bitcoin security consulting service. We help people put themselves into like a top 0.1% security model that
is resistant against both thefts and attacks and loss and human mistakes, basically shooting yourself in the
foot. That's one of the biggest issues when you go from third party custody to self custody, just making
sure that you're not having any single points of failure where one thing could go wrong and end up being
catastrophic. And since it sounds like you've got a diverse audience, I will say, you know, Casa also supports
Ethereum and some Ethereum based tokens. The short version is that, you know, we're primarily concerned
with helping people secure large amounts. So we don't support every token under the sun. We support things
that have really high market cap and have a lot of value that people are looking to store securely in a
distributed key cold storage setup. Great. Okay. So it's fair to say that you are a Bitcoin OG
not just as an investor, but also as a builder and you play a very active role in the community,
speaking at conferences, traveling around the world in, in educating people, not just on the future of
Bitcoin and the benefits of Bitcoin, but also the security of Bitcoin. And how do we keep our Bitcoin
safe? Because if we all want this to be a long-term store of value, then I think one thing that people need to
understand is there is upgrades that might need to be made to Bitcoin, which is really hard for a lot of
people to wrap their head around because a lot of people think, oh, Bitcoin, 21 million fixed supply.
It's done. No worries. We have most of the supply is already mined. The rest will get mined and we'll
sail off into the sunset and everybody can have self custody and no worries. But there is some risk and
there is some things that we need to talk about very important things, some things that would say that a
crisis is coming in the future. Okay. And one of really what this revolves around is the risk of
some older wallets. And mainly this starts with Satoshi Stash. Can you just first explain to us
what is Satoshi Stash and what the estimates are in terms of the size of it?
Yeah, I'll even step back a little bit further and just say that there are many different risks across the
ecosystem, both to individuals and systemic risk to the network itself. I would say even more pressing than the quantum stuff we're going to talk about is
centralization risk. And I think everyone understands that 21 million coin supply and all of these other rules that make Bitcoin a very hard asset, a very scarce and valuable asset.
But all of the rules that make Bitcoin what it is only really work insofar as the power is distributed well across the ecosystem.
You know, we don't want there to be any entities that are too big to fail that have, you know, too much Bitcoin that they're holding on behalf of many other people.
Anyone who knows the history of the space should understand, you know, from Gox to FTX to the dozens of other centralized exchanges that have failed for a plethora of different reasons over the years. And so that's actually one of the bigger concerns that I have nflows are going into ETFs.
are going into ETFs that are mostly held at Coinbase or just any of the number of other large exchanges. So, you know, even beyond that, of course, there are these edge case risk where we're talking about protocol issues. And I was actually at Op Next conference ber of really smart, nerdy guys talking about a number of different really, really low level problems with the protocol edge case attacks.
There are actually ways, for example, that an adversarial mining pool could substantially harm the network and, you know, create blocks, for example, that are really, really hard to validate and slow down everybody else on the network. And so, you know, that's tion risk within mining.
I would argue that some of the mining pools have a lot more hash rate proportionally than we would like. And there are efforts to try to distribute that more by improving protocols. So there's many different things, I think, to be worried about, though, you know, 't need to consider these low level protocol issues. But I do think that the average person should at least consider the difference between a trusted third party custody and self custody.
You know, I think that the average person should be in a trusted third party custody and self custody because the more people who are self custody. Once again, that's one form of power distribution that as as we get more people self custody, it's just fewer large  could, I wouldn't say be catastrophic, but have major impacts on the market. You know, whenever there's a major issue at a major centralized custodian that tends to have lasting impacts on the market.
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You know, depending upon how bad the issue is, you can't predict how the market will react. And you know, it could, if it's bad enough that that is the, to me, the big risk of all of this. And I'm getting a bit like doomsday here when I say this. And, isk of all of this.
And, but I feel like you understand because sometimes in order to get people to listen, you need to point out the worst possible scenario, but the worst possible scenario here would be that if there was, if there was some sort of a major exploit, either, allet or through some sort of quantum
Computing computing, which could happen in the next five, 10, maybe 20 years and enough Bitcoin was stolen and then subsequently dumped onto the market, you could see a price run in Bitcoin and then you could see fear and Bitcoin could go to zero ero.
Yeah, obviously there's many variables. And in most cases, I think it wouldn't go to zero and stay there. And there would be some people who are like, Oh, this is, you know, blood in the streets. I'm buying all the Bitcoin up for a few dollars again. fragile system, but it's only anti-fragile insofar as there are many, many different people all over the world who are contributing to Bitcoin.
Their own skill sets, their knowledge, their time, their resources into maintaining and hopefully improving the network from a variety of different perspectives. And so that's one of the things that I do is I take this really, really long term view and I d try to anticipate, you know, what are some potential edge case scenarios that could come about and what might we do to try to get ahead of them.
And so quantum computing is a hot topic these days, partially because we're seeing a lot of big tech companies that are making various announcements about breakthroughs in quantum computing. And the short version that I'll give on like how afraid we nk we're still several orders of magnitude of, you know, hardware improvements away from a quantum computer to achieve what we might call a quantum supremacy.
Or to hit what you might call a Q day, which is essentially, once you have a quantum computer that is sufficiently powerful enough, then it is possible to use something called Shor's algorithm to essentially reverse engineer a private key from a public ost of the Bitcoin that are in various addresses these days,
are in types of scripts that are protected by hashes and they do not expose the public key to the blockchain until you're actually go to spend it. But due to things like address reuse or due to things like the miners from the 20 2009 2010 era. So the ng. Those are actually in what we call pay to public key outputs where the public key is actually in what we call pay to
public key outputs where the public key is exposed on the blockchain. So any coins that are sitting on the blockchain with exposed public keys are vulnerable to what you would call a long range attack, which is basically that because the public key is ufficiently powerful quantum computer can take their sweet time to try to break that and get the private key. And, you know, I gave that talk that you're referring to where it was kind of a clickbait.
title talking about Satoshi stash because it is estimated that Satoshi has around a million Bitcoin. But if I was a quantum attacker, I actually would not go after Satoshi's coins first because there are a number of Bitcoin addresses that have a lot more.
Bitcoin in them. Basically Satoshi coins are spread out across nearly 35,000 to 40,000 different addresses. So a quantum attacker would have to crack each one of those individually to get each of those 50 Bitcoin. But there are some addresses that have 
Coins in them. So, you know, you just crack that one address, you get much bigger payout. And you know, if we're talking about if a quantum attacker appeared today, they would actually go after like the Binance or the Bitfinex addresses that have n them. And that really would be a
catastrophic situation. And of course, we're all hoping that we've still got a lot of time before that happens. And that's one of the biggest debates right now is that no one knows how much time we have. All we really know is that progress is being made d we know that various standards institutes and even governments are basically going around saying, hey, we really recommend that anyone who is doing commerce or other sensitive things
things over the internet, try to get themselves upgraded to using post quantum cryptography over the next five or so years.
Help me just understand the risk here and the timeline. So the risk is quantum computing evolves and gets to the point where it can successfully through this long range attack, which basically, as you said, means you have unlimited amount of time. This 
take an address and forever try to figure out the private key for that address until it hacks it. Is this five years away until a quantum computer can do this 10 years, 20 years?
I certainly hope it's more than five, because you know, the nature of Bitcoin is such that it is very difficult to make changes to the protocol. And because it's a system without any rulers, even if we get to the point where we agree upon a quantum
resistant signature scheme to implement, we can't force people to migrate their coins. And so this is where I had a fairly controversial post to the Bitcoin development mailing list a few weeks ago, where I made an argument that it's actually it's better  in my opinion, that we announce a sort of drop dead date of like after some date in the future.
If your coins, if your coins are in a quantum vulnerable address, you're just not going to be able to spend them. And that is mainly well, that's for two things. One is to basically prevent this risk that you were talking about of massive economic arge, large portion of the overall supply by some attacker. I think it's pretty safe to assume that an attacker who has invested enough resources to win the quantum
race is going to want to benefit from that. And if we look at any number of other hacks or thefts over the years, when someone tends to come into possession of a large amount of Bitcoin, they don't just sit on it, they tend to liquidate it and turn it ther purposes. The other thing is that it's an incentives issue. And I can tell you, you know, from 20 years of doing software development and watching user behavior, users are very
very, very slow to take action to do any sort of migration. And one example of that was actually when I was working at BitGo in 2017, and we had the soft fork for Segwit and Segwit had a number of improvements to it. One of which was that it's actually asically get a discount on your transaction fees. If you're spending from a segregated witness addresses. You
would think that the incentives there would be for large entities that are transacting frequently to upgrade to that. But what we found is that was not the case. Even though we emailed our various enterprise users, and these are entities that are sending y, they were not upgrading. We actually ended up having to write other tooling and do calculations on a per client basis and basically reach out to them and say, Hey,
you are spending, you are spending, you know, $50,000 a day more in fees than you would if you simply updated your your BitGo client software to be able to use these segregated witness addresses. And so that's why I think incentives are incredibly ve people a specific date by which they need to take action, most people are just going to be like, Oh, it's not a big problem. Like I'll just wait and I'll do it once it's actually a problem. And then once it's actually a problem, of
of course, you will have this. Some people have called it the thundering herd problem, basically everybody, you know, running for the exits or running to migrate their coins. And of course, Bitcoin has a very low throughput volume. If everybody wants to oing to take like at least half a year worth of block data to do.
In your mind, this is inevitable. You don't know the timelines. So, you know, hopefully it's not five years. Hopefully it's more than that. The quantum computer gets to this point. But this is inevitable in your mind. If we don't take action at some ly know what the path is going to be. Then we are that is likely that a quantum computer will be able to, to hack and steal at least the
the Bitcoin that is like, it's like what one or 2 million Bitcoin that's in these old style wallets.
Yeah. And pay to public key addresses. I think there's around like 1.5 million. And then, but then it's, it's a, it's a, it's a multi-level problem. Like even after that, any, well, anyone who has reused addresses, which unfortunately is a big problem, f the basic.
Don't do it is what I said, basic Bitcoin hygiene is to not reuse addresses. And that's for
And that's for several reasons as for privacy reasons, but it's also for some of these esoteric security reasons. So, um, you know, as the quantum computers get faster and faster, it'll, it'll change from just doing long range attacks to also be being ich is basically that even if your coins are protected by a hash, when you go to spend them and you put that in the men pool and you're waiting to get confirmed in a block during that period of time, you're vulnerable. So if the quantum computer is
It's fast enough that it can crack the keys in 10 minutes or so, then, uh, you know, those coins become quite vulnerable as well. And I think it's hard to say inevitable because this is another point of contention around the debate.
Theoretically, we know that like given enough, uh, quantum cubits, which is a measure of computational power. And like given sufficiently high enough error correction and several other variables,
of how you kind of try to quantify the actual computational power of a quantum computer, if.
The threshold is reached, then yes, uh, they should be able to do this. There are some people who think that it will never be reached for various like physics issues. And I am not a quantum physicist. So, you know, I can't really make an argument one way is.
Sufficiently concerning that I think that I think that we should be discussing it now.
Okay. So let's say we, everybody did agree that we needed to make this, this change. How long would it take to do this kind of a migration and this kind of a, of a shift?
So it'll, it'll depend on several factors. Like one of the biggest problems with the quantum safe signature schemes is that they use a ton of data. They use like 100 to 1000 times as much data for a signature as what we use today.
So it's already slow enough. Don't slow it down more.
Yeah. So, you know, then, um, like there's, there's debate happening over which of these schemes should be chosen because they all have different trade-offs with like validation time and data costs. And, uh, if one is chosen, then I suspect there will be aps a new type of discount, similar to what happened with segregated witness discounts.
There may be some sort of quantum signature discounts, uh, to try to bump it back up, to be able to do at least like five transactions per second, uh, on chain. And so then the question is, you know, are we talking about migrating the entire UTXO set, n UTXOs?
Or are we mainly concerned about getting most of the value? Because of course, value is not evenly distributed between addresses and UTXOs.
I think, sorry, quickly, what's UTXO?
The unspent, uh, transaction output, you know, that's like the real Bitcoin is what is, uh, currently stored in a transaction output that has not been spent.
And so you could probably migrate like 95% or more of the value of Bitcoin in a couple of months. But once again, there's no way to coordinate this.
The best we can do is essentially get all of the media and all of the different wallet software to be putting notices out everywhere. Um, but it's also a sort of matriculation problem where first of all, it's going to take.
I don't know, a year, if not multiple years to come to consensus about how to make the change of the protocol. And then once you actually activate a change of the protocol, then you have to get adoption through the rest of the wallet ecosystem.
Uh, and then once the wallets have migrated, then the actual users of the wallets can start migrating their coins. So, you know, it is a multi-layered approach. And each of those steps takes months, if not years.
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It's not all doom and gloom here, though. Uh, you believe that we are in a position where, and the sense that I'm getting, especially from, as you mentioned, the post that you made a few weeks ago, feels like the crisis isn't here yet. We still have time.
But because of how long it takes to get consensus and get buy-in, because of how long it takes to communicate with all Bitcoin holders along the world. It's not like you guys have a Bitcoin email address or something like that, where you can easily  should start.
Now that the time is now to start to set these deadlines to start. How confident are you in our ability to take the necessary steps in order to protect ourselves for the long-term?
This is a fun problem because I see so many parallels between this quantum computing debate and the climate change debate. You know, in both cases, you can, you can look at the trends. You can see that, like, we're going in a direction that is not knows when we're all going to die. And, and so, you know, because there's a lot of people.
Who perhaps have incentives where they don't want to have to put in a lot of hard work and do all of these migrations and changes. And there's always, of course, the there's the unknown future problem of, well, if we wait, maybe someone will come up with signature scheme than if we wait.
And so on and so forth, like cryptography itself is a constantly moving field and I'm not a cryptographer, but suffice to say, I think that it's going to be something we're going to be watching for quite a while.
Okay. So on the quantum computing risk, we've got to start acting soon. It'll take years to get to consensus.
And then even most likely years to update the protocol and get everybody on board and update all the infrastructure wallets, everything.
So this is something that we need to act on sooner rather than later, which is why you're out there pounding the drum and spreading the message, which is so, so important.
I want to chat, though, about people's self custody of their own Bitcoin, because that's a lot of people listening to the show.
I assume everybody let's let's start with what would you say to everybody that has their Bitcoin in a centralized exchange?
You don't have any Bitcoin.
What's your view of centralized exchanges? How do you do you use centralized exchanges?
I mean, I use I use exchanges as on ramp and off ramp. I don't use them for storage.
And I mean, I when I got into Bitcoin, Mt. Gox was the Bitcoin exchange and I did my first ever wire transfer to send money to some tiny little bank in Tokyo in order to try to get some of these Bitcoin tokens.
And thankfully, I understood the ramifications of trusted third party custody versus self custody, and I did not get burned when they went down, but a lot of people did.
And I think that this is a recurring problem because, you know, every cycle, every adoption cycle, you have a new cohort of people come in a larger cohort and generally a less sophisticated cohort.
And if the new cohort is not going and doing a lot of research and looking at history and seeing what has happened and how many, many people have been harmed in this space because they have essentially thrown out the window.
One of the greatest strengths of this network, which is that you are able to use it without trusting third parties, then it seems like the cycle of large amounts of people getting burned.
And it seems like a lot of people getting burned through that very simple mistake is going to continue.
So yeah, I keep beating the drum.
There's only so much that you can really do, though.
It's very difficult.
You know, I've been, I've been essentially selling security for a decade now, and it's difficult to sell these abstract concepts of privacy and security and stuff because the average person, well, they're busy living their lives.
They've got a lot of other things are concerned about.
And generally you take the perspective of, oh, it won't happen to me.
Or, or also, you know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
You know, I've had my coins with custodian blah for several years and it's been fine or Coinbase has been around for a decade and they haven't become insolvent and gone down.
So Coinbase will be around forever.
Right.
And you know, I'm not like knocking on Coinbase.
No, no.
Yeah.
You're not saying that there's some big risk to Coinbase like imminently tomorrow or anything.
You know, coin.
Look, Coinbase is not going to pull an FTX.
You don't really have to worry about that, but there's still many other things that can go wrong.
And I would also inform people that actually Coinbase users are losing their money left and right.
We have reason to believe that Coinbase may be losing 50 to $100 million worth of Bitcoin every month.
That's not because Coinbase.
Yeah, this is not because Coinbase themselves have insecure infrastructure like Coinbase is not getting hacked and having these funds stolen, but rather their end users are getting social engineered.
And attackers are correctly and successfully authenticating into the Coinbase accounts and withdrawing everything.
And so, you know, this this is the same type of problem that really any type of bank has to deal with is essentially various types of fraud.
And this is also, this is a result of the fact that we have continued to raise the bar on security and we've continued to increase and enforce better practices across the ecosystem.
So that really today, generally speaking for the average user, the risk is not so much in your personal like private keys getting hacked, but rather the weak point for most people.
And this is true regardless of if you're doing self custody or third party custody.
The weakness is you.
It's the human.
It's your brain.
And so that's where we're seeing a lot of attackers focusing their efforts essentially doing these social engineering scams where they're calling you up and they're saying, hey, this is Coinbase or Kraken or Binance or maybe even your your favorite like  FYI, there's actually a security incident ongoing and your funds are at risk.
And if you don't move them very quickly, you're going to lose everything.
And so they use these fear and intimidation tactics to basically get people to authenticate into their holdings and then move them, but send them directly to the attacker.
I mean, it's as you said, it's similar fraud that has happened for decades in other industries and just applying it to crypto.
Right now, because there's such an opportunity for these scammers.
Okay.
What would be your your security protocol or your security best practices for those listening who are doing self custody?
What would you recommend that they think about and make sure that they do have this 1% security if that's possible?
Yeah, I mean, I think security should be commensurate with the amount of value that you have at risk.
So, you know, if you have pocket money, if you have less than $1,000, like you might an amount that you might walk around with that amount of cash in your pocket, then you're probably fine with using something like just a hot wallet on your mobile phone.
You know, it's it's connected to the Internet and it's it's not the highest secure setup, but it's convenient to use.
And so that's really what a lot of this comes down to is trade offs between convenience and security.
But if you're going beyond that, if you're you have an investment level amount that would sting if you lost it.
I think if you have more than $1,000 worth that you should at least invest 50 to $100 in buying a hardware device.
Like your treasure ledger cold card bit box really any of the big name brands that are highly adopted and have been well vetted and that gets your keys off of the Internet.
So that protects you from hackers.
It also it gives you a better level level of validation when you're actually spending the funds so that you know that they're going to the destination where you think that they're going.
And beyond that, if you're getting into the territory where you have a significant amount of value, it's like a large portion of your net worth, maybe like generational wealth level.
You know, if it gets to the point where you would be totally distraught if if those funds became lost and accessible stolen, what have you that's when you need to start thinking about single points of failure.
And you know how how do I put my digital assets into a setup so that if something goes wrong, it's not catastrophic and basically that's what we do at Casa is that we make it as easy as possible to get into that type of setup.
And, you know, we do that by leveraging things like hardware devices to hold the keys multi signature aspects of the protocols so that instead of just having one key, that is, you know, the one one key to rule at all.
Rather, you have multiple keys on multiple pieces of software and hardware that are distributed around geographically.
And all of this different diversity gives you a level of security that can't even really be replicated with like a Fort Knox, for example, I call this like better than bank grade security.
Because, you know, even Fort Knox is one single physical point, you know, if it got nuked or something that would be game over.
But to put it in perspective, like our most conscious and secure users who want to be secure against like nation state level threats will actually distribute their keys across nation state boundaries.
So that, you know, even a nation state type of like 6102 or wrench attack or what have you, the nation state would not be able to cross over into other jurisdictions, preferably jurisdictions that they do not have good relations with.
And so you have this really cool type of jurisdictional arbitrage that you can actually take advantage of that like no other asset lets you do that.
But, you know, this is getting to the real extreme end of what is possible with these protocols.
I think a lot of people don't even fully understand that we can do this and it's actually not it doesn't have to be as hard as you might think.
And then there are companies like Casa out there where we've been doing this for many years and we've we've helped so many clients with so many different specific edge case situations that we have an answer for pretty much every possible concern that you 
Right. And so it's it's not I mean, obviously, the question of how much value do you have and how your security aligns with with that value is an important question, which only you can answer yourself.
And obviously, you know, first and foremost, don't ever go on social media or anywhere online and tell anybody how much Bitcoin or anything else you have that's security practice.
Number one is just keep it to yourself. Don't be telling people. I mean, we all keep seeing stories of influencers gloating about how much of a certain asset they have and then very unfortunate situations of them getting robbed at gunpoint of their house 
Because, you know, there's unfortunately some some bad actors out there who will come after you. So that would be number one.
It sounds like this, the security best practices, though, they're not they're not they're not overly difficult.
It just takes time. It's they're not overly difficult or over expensive. Am I correct in saying that? Like, you don't need to have some access to some, you know, quantum computer or anything like that. Like this is basic things that anybody could set up. the cost is going to be, you know, nothing crazy is my guess.
Yeah, I mean, the the puzzle pieces have been there for about a decade. So, you know, I worked at BitGo, which was like the first real multi sig focused company.
And they launched in 2014. But like I said, they were primarily focused on enterprises. And then also in 2014. I think that's when Trezor came out. And then we started seeing a more diverse hardware ecosystem for securing keys. So there's a lot of at is out there.
That, you know, you can use to set up your own free distributed multi sig system. I think the cost that people may not think about is really just the knowledge. You have a pretty large knowledge gap that you have to think about.
To understand all of the potential threats. And so that's what we really kept in mind when we were designing our wallet application is that we're not throwing a bunch of technical jargon at you. It's basically, you know, you follow the instructions in 
gets you into this like top 0.1% setup simply by using the key setup that we've designated for you. And if you have, you know, further questions beyond that, you know, we actually have high levels of
support where we can work with you one on one. And then, you know, we also have an inheritance solution built in that if you're in our two of three products, you can onboard an inheritance recipient in about 10 minutes and they don't have to be technical 
That's great because inheritance is one of the big issues that I feel like does not get discussed a lot because bitcoins are so new. We haven't had a lot of Bitcoin holders that have died yet. Right. But that is inevitable. And, and I'm sure a lot of ie today, would your kids or your wife know or your husband know how to get your Bitcoin? Probably not is the answer for I'm guessing for most people.
Yeah. And I mean, even, even people who have thought about it, what we commonly see is what we call the treasure map.
So the people who have put some effort into it generally come up with some set of instructions and they just put them in a safe or, you know, give them to an executor. And they're like, you know, if I get hit by a truck, just follow this and you'll be thing is, you know, that's of course not guaranteed, but I think the bigger problem is that a lot of those people essentially
don't do dry runs. And if you, what I recommend people do is you go, go to YouTube and search for peanut butter, jelly sandwich instruction video. And there's a really interesting adversarial game that people play of basically write down the instructions d jelly sandwich. And then I'll follow them. And you can very easily see from that, how it's quite possible to
not have sufficiently precise level of instructions and have them be misinterpreted and, and ultimately fail by the person who has been designated to follow them.
Which would leave you in a very difficult position. Yeah. It makes a ton of sense. I mean, if I, these are not simple instructions, peanut butter sandwich is much easier to make. So if people can't follow that, then following this would be very fore we let you go.
How worried are you crisis looming? What's your final takeaways on where we are and where we need to be in the future?
So, you know, what I've, I've been kind of raising concerns about for several years are what I consider to be long-term trends that I'm not a big fan of.
You know, before I was doing a Bitcoin security stuff, I was actually an email engineer. And so I have some lengthy presentations where I talk about the history of email as a protocol and how email actually went from being a highly decentralized protocol 
centralized protocol that was captured by about 10 gatekeepers. You know, as of today, something like 90 or 95% of all email goes through one of 10 companies. And that's, that's one of the main things that I'm trying to push back against. And I'm hoping e mistakes with Bitcoin. It's just the trends, especially with ETFs and custodians over the past couple of years have, have not made me feel better about it.
But this is also why I've spent the past 10 years working on self-custody is because this is kind of an issue where we're fighting against human nature. And human nature is generally to choose convenience at the expense of almost everything else. And be, I'm going to be honest with you.
against human nature. And human nature is generally to choose convenience at the expense
of almost everything else. And that's my main takeaway is that if everyone chooses the most
convenient path, I think it's not going to be the best for the long-term health of Bitcoin as a
network. That's a tough one when we live in a world dominated by convenience now. So we'll see.
We'll have to see this one goes. Jameson, thank you so much for joining us today. Appreciate your
time. Thanks so much for listening in, everybody. Please, please take a chance to follow Jameson
on Twitter or go check out CASA or just take your own time to think about your Bitcoin setup and the
rest of your coins for that matter. It's not just about Bitcoin. It's about all your coins. Think
about your setup and make sure you're secure out there. Thanks again for your time today, Jameson.
Thanks for having me. Have a wicked awesome day, everybody. Thanks for listening in.
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