Servus and greetings from Vienna.
My name is Anita Posch.
Thank you for listening to Bitcoin und Co.
My podcast that's introducing the philosophy, ideas, and people behind Bitcoin.
Hi, my dear listener, welcome to the show.
Today I want to tell you that I'm really, really happy about the feedback I get from
you from all over the world.
Yesterday, for instance, I received a message from a listener from Maui.
I've heard from people learning German, living in English speaking countries who enjoy listening
to my German and the English podcast.
People recommend the show to others.
That's so great.
A big thank you goes out to every single one of you.
Today's guest is Jameson Lopp.
He's very well known in the Bitcoin space for his expertise on security, technology,
and privacy.
He's maintaining a resources page with links to valuable Bitcoin information.
And since his house was swatted by police in 2017, after an unknown attacker reported
a false hostage situation, he's a cypherpunk at heart.
Jameson is also the CTO at Casa, a company devoted to providing products for personal
sovereignty.
Before we start, I wanted to tell you that you can find all reading recommendations mentioned
by my guests on the books page at bitcoinandco.com.
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So hello, Jameson Lopp.
Thanks for being here.
My pleasure.
Great to be here.
First, I want to thank you.
You've added my podcast to your great resources website and I know you're creating this site,
so you only put things on it that you like, I guess.
Absolutely.
Wouldn't put it on there if it wasn't high quality.
Thank you.
So you're the CTO of Casa at the moment.
Can you please introduce yourself?
What's your story?
How did you get into the Bitcoin space?
Well, I have been in the Bitcoin space full-time for almost five years now and I was an enthusiast
for several years before that.
Really I got involved when I realized that Bitcoin was not dying.
I had heard about it a number of times and always wrote it off as something that was
going to get hacked, everyone was going to lose their money and it wouldn't last that
much longer.
After a few years, I said, maybe I should look into this and when I finally sat down
and read the white paper, I realized as a computer scientist that it was actually solving
a very interesting problem that I had never even thought about before and that was what
really piqued my curiosity because it gave me this idea that if money is an abstract
concept that it really belongs to humanity in general, then it makes sense that money
should be an open collaborative project that anyone who cares can participate in rather
than being something that only some elites get to decide how it works.
Yeah, and I think in the history of money, it always was coming into existence from the
edges and from the people actually.
It was sort of a natural evolution, much like language itself.
There is no authority who decides how language works or evolves.
It just sort of happens organically over time and then people will write down the rules
that have sort of appeared out of thin air, but no one has dictated these rules from an
authoritative standpoint.
So it's quite the opposite to nation-state money and to corporate money.
Definitely.
I believe that it is a more pure form of economic interaction.
You said it's like language, I mean money is language in a way.
I think even there's the saying that Bitcoin cannot be forbidden because it's the freedom
of speech.
Yes, it would be like trying to forbid mathematics or cryptography or really forbidding the use
of the internet itself is essentially a new type of communication protocol.
You think of the global perspective here, I guess, like also being able to have a unique
medium of exchange or a bureau instrument and which is accessible for everybody worldwide.
Yes, at least if we can get the rest of the world on the internet and we can improve the
communication to the rest of the world of what Bitcoin is.
This is why I do think it's important that we work on more translations and bridging
the gaps between different cultures and languages.
You said before there was a point when you realized that Bitcoin solved a problem that
hasn't been solved before.
Which one was that?
Yes, the Byzantine generals problem is how do you coordinate amongst a group of actors
where there may be enemy actors in their midst that are trying to disrupt that coordination?
Okay, and Satoshi could solve this with the proof of work or with the consensus?
What was the solving puzzle?
Yes, it really was the proof of work.
This allows us to create snapshots and points in time that say, okay, we have consensus
about the state of the system at this point in time.
Then of course, you go forward and a lot of things happen, unconfirmed transactions, whatnot,
and none of those are really settled.
But then as we add more proof of work, create another block, add it to this long list of
changes of history, then we start to build a trustworthy history basically that people
can have assurances has not been tampered with.
How secure would you say in comparison to other financial technologies is Bitcoin?
Yes, it's hard to quantify security in a lot of cases because in many cases you need
to actually describe what the threats are that you are trying to secure something against.
But if we're trying to create a system that is secure enough that no single person or
no single entity regardless of how much influence or authority they may have can corrupt the
system or change it on a whim, then I would say Bitcoin as a distributed decentralized
network is far more secure than any of the traditional financial networks because those
can have authorities whether it's people at the banks or even a consortium of a few
banks coming together and saying, you know what, we're actually going to change this
history or we're going to change these rules and you don't have to agree with it.
We're just going to do it without your consent.
Which is what sets proof of work apart from everything else, I think.
Yeah, I mean that we have general consensus that if the proof of work is valid and they
have been following the rules to which we agree, then in order to go back and change history,
you have to expend a lot of resources that probably doesn't make sense.
But even beyond that, changing any rules arbitrarily is not really possible in this system because
we actually provide a very strong veto for anyone who is running a fully validating node
software in the system.
If you try to do even the smallest little thing that tries to break the smallest little
rule, then your software essentially acts as a guard against that and as a shield where
it will automatically block that rule breaking from being applied.
Is this also the reason why everybody should have a full node?
I believe it is good both at an individual level because it provides you a level of assurance
that no one else can because you are not trusting anyone else.
It also just makes the system more robust because the more dispersed the validation
of the rules is, we use a term like the more doors that must be kicked down in order to
force people to change the rules against their consent.
So I found on Twitter, I found a post from you which says, welcome to Bitcoin newcomers.
Here's your FAQ.
Who should I trust?
Nobody.
Can you talk a little bit about the idea behind that?
Yes.
The word that we use probably too much in the system is trustless, which the idea behind
that being that if you are running software that is validating everything that's happening
in the system, it's validating the entire history of the system, then you are not trusting
that anyone else in the world is providing you with the truth.
You are essentially validating and forming your own perspective of the truth.
If anyone out there tries to give you false data, then you can very easily audit that
and say, no, this is not truthful.
Now when I say trust no one, it's at an even higher level than that, which is that there
are many people in this space who will try to fool you and may try to part you from your
money or they may try to convince you that you should enact certain rule changes that
may not be in your best interest.
And so you do need to be an independent thinker in order to flourish in a space like this
where you're trying to avoid relying upon authorities because those authorities may
have different incentives than you.
You can't really trust that anyone has your best interest and heart other than yourself.
Yeah, but how can I live that way?
Because if I trust no one, then it's very like, no, not a good life, I think.
It is.
Yes, it's not convenient.
Yeah.
And this is why throughout human history, we have created these hierarchical like command
and control systems where a lot of people will trust an authority and basically follow
whatever they say because that authority is supposed to be the expert.
They're the ones who spend all of their time thinking about this and therefore whatever
they recommend should be the best thing to do.
But that can break down if the authority becomes corrupt or just if the authority decides that
their incentives lie in some other space doing something that's not good for you.
Yeah, but on the other hand, I would like to say I would trust your tips on security,
for instance, and I trust other people about their experiences and because they do research
and stuff.
But then still, it's insecure.
Yes.
Now, that's not to say that there should not be an issue, for example, of reputation.
There are going to be people who are more reputable than others and you may give them
your time and listen to them, whereas other people you would not bother listening to.
But I think when we use the word trust, we even mean solely trust a single source as
the truth, whereas I would hope that even people who listen to me are also listening
to other people who are talking about similar things and they can kind of cross-check that
and verify that what I'm saying is not completely insane, that is actually generally accepted
as a good idea.
Just be good informed and build your own opinion.
So the second thing is when should I sell?
Your answer is never.
Well, do you really want to get rid of sound money in return for unsound money is the main
thing.
I would think that if you find yourself in a life situation where you do really need
something that cannot be purchased with Bitcoin, then sure, you might as well sell it and pay
for whatever it is that you need.
But I think that generally the game of just speculating is a waste of time and it's not
really adding a lot of value to the system.
Okay, so you're not a holder in that sense.
You use your Bitcoin to buy other Bitcoin stuff or because there are other people who
say I don't spend the money, I hold it because I don't care.
I think I believe in the digital gold.
Right.
I don't use Bitcoin to do my daily purchases of food and other necessities.
That's actually, I've said this before, one of the reasons why I still have a salary,
I still work a fairly regular job where I have benefits and income is because that enables
me not to have to sell my Bitcoin.
It's just another form of investment.
But no, I do still buy things from time to time.
Sometimes I actually have to buy things, for example, like Bitcoin security products that
are only sold for Bitcoin.
So I certainly do still spend it from time to time.
But I think that's a good thing because then you support other companies who are in the
space to get it forward.
The next thing is, is Bitcoin dying because of question mark and your answer is no.
Not so far and I think it's pretty unlikely.
The way that I generally phrase the issue of can Bitcoin die is that it can't be dead
until we all agree that it is dead.
There are so many of us now, it's so widely distributed, so many people who are working
on it that I can't even imagine it would have to be something incredibly both catastrophic
and I think dismaying that just makes everyone lose all hope that this system is going to
continue to function in order for everyone to just give up on it.
Yeah.
So if only like 100 people worldwide would use it, it would be enough.
It would still continue to exist and you can actually see that with a number of the other
tokens and stuff out there, many of which are barely traded, barely used at all, but
they still technically continue to function.
Still not dead.
And the last question is, what have I gotten myself into?
And you say, nobody knows.
Yeah, we're still trying to figure that out and that's one of the reasons why I'm still
obsessed and fascinated with this space is that there's still so much left to explore
and learn and we're still trying to understand what the full capabilities of this technology
are.
Okay.
So you haven't stopped learning yet.
Not at all.
And that's why I'm constantly adding more educational resources to my website.
Yeah, that's great.
I mean, but you know a lot about the technical aspects, I guess, from Bitcoin as CTO of CASA
as well as with your history and what you say and do.
I mean, that might be a silly question, yeah, but I asked it nonetheless because many things,
many people like are looking to find arguments against Bitcoin and one of it is like it's,
it has been built by the NSA or the FBI and they have a backdoor.
What do you say?
So it's impossible to prove the, you know, non-existence of things.
So it's impossible to prove that there's not a backdoor in the protocol.
However, we logically approach this from the opposite perspective, which is that if there
was some sort of catastrophic bug, most likely it would be very beneficial for someone to
exploit it.
And so you have to ask yourself why has no one exploited it if, you know, this code is
open source and it has been reviewed by thousands if not tens of thousands of technically competent
engineers and is it really so well hidden that no one in the world can find it?
It's entirely unlikely.
It's, you know, I cannot say unequivocally impossible, but the likelihood is so low that
it's not even really worth worrying about.
You're also a cypherpunk, I think, or you identify yourself as a cypherpunk.
Has this started before Bitcoin or did you get into it with Bitcoin?
No, it was after.
I wish that I had been, you know, a cypherpunk before Bitcoin because then I probably would
have gotten interested earlier.
But you know, personally became a lot more interested in privacy after my whole neighborhood
got shut down by the police when someone was targeting me and basically put in a false
hostage report.
And it was at that point in time that I realized that I needed to make it much more difficult
for people to find me in order to essentially use resources of the state against me or just
to make my life miserable in a variety of different ways.
There are many, many types of sort of griefing attacks that can be done against people these
days if they have your physical location.
I've heard of everything from screwing with your utility bills to trying to take ownership
of like the deed to your house.
And of course, the swatting is one of the more extreme ones.
And you know, it can be dangerous.
And thankfully, that situation ended without any incident.
But it was traumatic and want to avoid any similar type of things happening in the future.
So nobody knows where you live or how do you manage that?
Yes.
So I would say I could probably count on my fingers how many people know my real address.
And it becomes it becomes tricky.
It's really a new lifestyle.
Yeah.
And you only use burner phones or how do you manage that?
Yes.
You know, buying SIM cards anonymously with cash or prepaid debit cards in Austria, that's
not possible anymore.
You have to register now.
Yes.
I actually just noticed the news article today where it's like 80% of countries require registration
of your identity with your cell.
And it's because of, you know, terrorism.
Yeah.
So.
And I mean, that's not the only thing.
I mean, the United States also offers a lot of legal protection on the privacy side.
You know, I'm able to set up legal entities that obscure ownership of my assets so that
my name isn't listed in private or public registries.
Yeah.
But I think that's not for the usual person, you know.
I mean, you have to research again and found a company even.
Yeah.
But it's not easy and I mean, it's not easy in Austria, for instance, as a business.
I have to have my business physical location on my website.
Right.
That is the unfortunate thing that I've really discovered as I've gone through this process
over the past couple of years is that even in the situations where you can get a high
degree of privacy, it takes a lot of resources and we have effectively, well, I would say
that most nations have effectively killed privacy for its citizens, at least not from
the legal standpoint, and even the other nations that have not killed it legally have effectively
made it much more expensive.
So we've priced privacy out of most people's day-to-day lives.
Even if you are interested in privacy, it's unlikely that you're willing to put in the
time, the money, the effort to actually regain your privacy.
Yeah, that's true.
I mean, to be honest, I only started being more private when I got into the Bitcoin space,
like securing my coins or also started to use a VPN, but it's not easy because I have
never used it before and now I go to some websites and I don't see anything because
they are blocked.
Yes.
So what do I do now?
Now I have to learn how to manage my VPN software and I go to them and ask them support ticket
and stuff and I don't get an answer.
So then I turn it off again.
So it's not easy to do.
And from the Bitcoin part, what do you recommend the usual user to do to restore or secure
his or her privacy in Bitcoin?
Yes, privacy in Bitcoin is pretty difficult, but it begins at the beginning and it depends
on once again how much effort you're willing to go to.
If you go the easy route and you go to an exchange that asks for your identification,
then you should basically assume that all of that money is going to be tied to you.
And so then if that's the case and you want to try to break the ties between you and your
money, then you have to figure out, well, do I want to use a mixer to try to anonymize
my coins?
And unfortunately, that is mostly beyond the reach of the average person at this point
in time.
I'm certainly hopeful that it will continue to become easier, but it's also hard to even
really know what the level of privacy that you have on your coins is.
If you did not purchase them with cash, basically, if you did not purchase them in a way that
did not require anti-money laundering, know your customer registration.
But you never know where your coins come from, huh?
If I even buy with cash, I don't know the traces.
Right.
Obviously, you can look at them on the blockchain, but that's not going to give you any identities
or tell you what they've been used for.
One of the things about fungibility and taint analysis and all of that is that if everyone
was doing techniques that are currently considered to be suspicious or shady and mixing their
coins together, then we would all be sufficiently quote unquote dirty in the taint analysis
of our coins.
The problem right now is that only a small subset of people are actually using some of
this privacy technology, and so the ones who are using it will look more suspicious to
the entities out there that are trying to de-anonymize transactions.
That's exactly what a guy said to me.
He works at the United Nations Office, tracking down terrorism financing and money laundering.
He said that the criminals in most cases use Bitcoin because if they would use Monero,
they would be easier to find because there are much less transactions in Monero.
That was his idea about it.
As I said at the beginning, there are several ways to store your Bitcoin securely.
But in a way, you always have to trust the manufacturer, of course.
That is why I love to know who are the people behind these products.
What makes them tick?
What are their values and goals?
Can I trust them?
That's one of the reasons why I do these interviews, for me and for you.
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I think you also did a technical research on Libra, the Facebook currency stablecoin.
What is your result on this research?
What's the technology about?
Yeah, I mean, I read their white papers, I looked at the code a little bit.
Essentially, I felt like it was far too early to really say a whole lot about it.
They put this announcement out when it was incomplete.
And so we're basically left speculating about how they might go about implementing some
of the things that they claim they're going to be implementing.
And in fact, even like within the white paper, there are a fair number of sections that say,
we would like to do something like this, but we haven't really figured it out yet.
I think that the most relevant thing to note with Libra is that they are asking for permission
and then building rather than just building and putting it out there, you know, the way
that Satoshi did.
So they actually face a much greater challenge.
And we've already seen that from like the likes of France and Germany are saying, you
know, we don't want you to be doing any of this.
Yeah, which is understandable.
I mean, because if Libra comes to like smaller countries, they have more money than the countries.
And I don't know, I wouldn't want the corporate money either.
And privacy, I mean, we don't have to talk about that.
I mean, they say they wouldn't use the transaction history for anything, but they always say
they don't use anything for selling it.
And I mean, it's possible that at the protocol level, there might not be, but it's also obvious
that the Calibra wallet will be the only wallet, at least at the beginning for a while.
And you know, that's basically Facebook, and we should probably assume that they're going
to be tracking everything they can.
Yeah.
I found another idea that you had like a miner in every household.
And the idea is that the water heater is a small miner, and you basically buy your Bitcoin
with the energy bill.
How realistic is this, this future?
Yeah, you know, I was talking about that, I think in 2015 or 2016.
And I do believe that there is a product out there.
I'm not sure how feasible it really is, though.
The main reason that I say that is because at Casa, we started shipping these nodes about
a year ago, and we've learned a lot over the past year.
And essentially, acting as a server administrator within your home, it's asking a lot of almost
anyone, even technical people.
There's so many more things that can go wrong.
When you're administering a server out of your home rather than out of a data center
that has a lot of redundancy, both on the internet and the electricity side, that we
find people's nodes screw up quite often due to just being in this more adversarial environment.
It's a lot harder to predict, and you end up having to build more tools that basically
help the user administer that thing.
So I'm sure the same would basically apply if you had a miner in your water heater.
Yeah, I can imagine that.
So is the Casa node, what is it doing?
Is it hidden behind Tor, or is it then on the list of the nodes?
What is it doing?
Yeah, so initially, we did not have Tor support.
And if you wanted to be a publicly accessible node, you would have to go into your router
and figure out how to do port forwarding.
And that was also asking a lot of most people.
But then we figured out that Tor actually solves a lot of problems.
It solves the privacy issue.
It solves the security issue of encrypted traffic, because otherwise you have to figure
out how to generate an SSL certificate, which is also asking a lot.
And third, it solves the networking problems, where your router at home is going to block
pretty much any incoming connection unless you manually tell it otherwise.
But if you're running on Tor, you just completely bypass all of those port issues.
Tor is just a completely different network that the router is not even looking at.
So we found that just having a simple single button click to turn on Tor is actually the
most user-friendly way for them to be able to operate what is essentially a server that
they can then access from anywhere globally.
And what can I do with the full node?
I can verify my own transactions?
Yeah, so on the CASA node, we're currently running Bitcoin Core and we're running LND.
And so you can have an on-chain wallet there that you make deposits to that is using the
full node to verify.
And then you can use those on-chain deposits to create lightning channels that are managed
by LND and then make and receive payments through the lightning network, either by using
the web dashboard that is on the node itself or by using our Sats app, which is a mobile
application which also connects to the node over Tor.
Okay.
And can I also connect to the full node with a smartphone wallet on the go?
It is possible, though not a lot of mobile wallet software supports connecting directly
to a single trusted node.
There's only a handful of SPV software out there that allows you to do that.
So it's a little trickier.
A few people have done it, but it's not something that we generally tell people to use.
Okay.
And somebody like me has to wait until it's more convenient.
Yeah.
So ultimately, what I'm planning for is we have other products like CASA KeyMaster, which
is our multi-sig vault product.
And I want to continue to integrate all of these things together so that we can offload
more of the verification away from the CASA servers and have your KeyMaster talking directly
to your node at home.
What is my KeyMaster?
So the KeyMaster is another mobile app which essentially allows you to manage your key
shield, either three of five or two of three multi-signature wallet.
But then the majority of those keys are actually not on the phone.
They are on other hardware devices that you keep geographically distributed.
Okay.
So I have several hardware wallets, for instance, and use it for a multi-sig.
Okay.
So the KeyMaster is the app for installing it or configuring it.
Yes.
Think of it as like a management dashboard.
Okay.
And I also read you have a seedless setup.
Yes.
Does this mean I don't have to secure my words anymore?
Exactly.
How can that work?
Yes.
This is a unique aspect of the KeyMaster.
Basically when we were looking at the security model of a multi-sig setup, we realized that
what people are doing, you know, you're buying a Trezor or a Ledger or a cold card and when
you initialize it, it gives you a list of words and then it says, write these down and
keep them safe.
And when we started analyzing what that actually means, you know, write them down and keep
it safe, there's a whole mountain of IT and security knowledge that is hidden under that
sentence that most people just gloss over and they don't understand the critical nature
of what they were just instructed to do.
So when we started probing the different options of like how do we tell our users to keep their
seed safe, eventually we just came to the conclusion that it would be so much simpler
if they just didn't have to keep their seed safe.
And so how do you do that?
You only have the seed, you only have the private keys on the hardware device.
They never leave the hardware device in the first place.
Then it becomes easier to think about and reason about the security of those keys because
you know that when they're on the device, they are safe from both hackers and physical
attackers because, you know, these devices are protected with a pin code to unlock them.
So the problem that arises from this is you're going to think, well, what happens if my device
breaks?
You know, now I've just lost one of my key sets.
Well, in our system, that's actually okay.
And one of the functions that the Keymaster app provides is built in key rotation.
So essentially, if you have a ledger, treasure, cold card, and it stops working or you lose
it or someone, you know, destroys it or steals it or really it gets compromised in any way,
then it's very simple for you to go buy a new one, go into the Keymaster app, click
on that device and just say, I need to replace the device.
Then you plug in your new device and we have a wizard that walks you through sweeping the
funds out of your current key set and depositing them into the new key set.
And in that way, you actually end up with a much more flexible security setup where
you have a level of robustness against loss because you're keeping your devices geographically
separated so that, you know, catastrophic events should only destroy one, maybe two
of them.
And then, you know, when they get destroyed or compromised, then it's actually very easy
for you to replace them.
So is the seed then on all the hardware devices at the same time?
Each hardware device has its own unique seed.
I have that now too, I mean, every device has its own seed.
So I would have like five seeds on paper, for instance.
Yes, but I assume that each of those is probably a single signature standalone wallet.
So whereas this basically combines them all into one wallet that is a multi-signature
wallet.
But this one, the seed for this one multi-signature wallet is on which device?
Ah, well, so there are, for the three of five model, that means there are five seed phrases.
The seedless setup, I mean.
Yes, so each device has its root, master, public, and private key, which is essentially
the seed phrase.
So you'll have one on your mobile device and then three different hardware devices.
And then the last one is actually held by CASA offline as a disaster recovery mechanism.
Held by CASA offline?
That means in a server from CASA?
Not on a server, no, completely offline, yeah.
But how do you get to know it?
So you don't need to know the seed phrase.
You actually only need to know the extended public keys for that set.
So when you set up a three of five CASA key master wallet, you initialize your three devices
and your mobile, and then CASA also assigns a set of public private keys to you.
And what we give you is instructions that contain all of your public keys, which is
necessary to determine the addresses of the wallet.
It's also necessary if you ever want to do a recovery of your wallet where you're not
using CASA software or CASA servers.
So we provide you with what we call the sovereign recovery guide, which is a step by step instructions
for how you would be able to load your hardware devices and all of the public keys into other
open source software and then be able to spend using that software without ever relying upon
CASA.
Okay, because that would have been my next question, of course.
So I mean, I have the feeling that CASA is building really a set of products around security
and privacy.
What's the vision?
I mean, do you want to become the Google suit of security in Bitcoin?
Something like that, I mean, we think of ourselves as providing almost like luxury white glove
concierge service for security in the crypto space.
At an even higher like broad vision level, our goal is to help improve personal sovereignty.
And note that, you know, I'm not saying help improve people store their Bitcoin or store
their private keys, but personal sovereignty in every way possible, it just so happens
that Bitcoin is one of the most obvious low-hanging fruit to personal sovereignty and financial
sovereignty.
But there are so many other things like data sovereignty or managing your identity or really
any personal information that I think that we're going to see over the long term this
suite expand to do far more than just crypto finance.
And what is your vision for Bitcoin?
What do you think what will happen in the next years?
It's very difficult to say other than, you know, I want to see more people using it.
And the reason that I've been doing basically the same thing for five years now, continuing
to work on pretty boring, low level security software is because I think that we need to
have a very solid user friendly foundation of security if we want average people who
don't live and eat and breathe Bitcoin all day long to be able to do this.
You know, they need to be as confident with their Bitcoin wallet as they are with the
money in their bank.
And so we still have a long ways to go for that.
Yeah.
Okay.
But that sounds like a good goal.
Yeah.
Then thank you.
I mean, if I ask you, do you have any recommendations for listeners to learn Bitcoin, then I think
we should mention your own page.
Absolutely.
lop.net or if it's easier to remember, bitcoin.page will also get you there.
Oh, that's very easy to remember.
What is your what are your favorite guides?
Do you have any favorites?
Some of my favorites are actually the ones in the getting started section.
There are a few that are basically cartoons, you know, that they're they're accessible,
you know, even for young children to help them understand some of the high level reasons
why what we're working on is different and why it's important.
Do you mean the book from the Bitcoin Rabbi?
Yes, Bitcoin Rabbi is in the Bitcoin book.
And there there's actually there's also a really good set of cartoon guides that I believe
the Square folks put out a year or two ago.
Very cute cartoons.
Oh, OK.
That's nice.
It's another way of looking at it.
Yeah.
Where can people find and follow your work?
I am really only on Twitter these days.
Handle is L O P P. And other than that, you can find me on GitHub.
But I link to all of my my active places at the bottom of my lop.net website.
Yeah.
OK.
Thank you very much for this interview.
Was a nice talk.
I hope you enjoyed it, too.
Thanks for having me.
Bye.
Thank you for listening.
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Music, start with yes, delicate beats, idea, content and production, yours truly Anita
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