Now, you understand that once this money leaves your account, we can't get it back. And I was like, I realized the risk that I'm taking. I think this is a good gamble. And long term ended up paying. How did you think that? I'm curious. Seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. You'll never have the sacred stone. You crazy mother. What is up, crew? Calvin Wayman here. And welcome to a brand new episode of the podcast. Curious with Calvin Wayman, the show where you get to join the conversations with awesome people around business, tech, tools, people, pop culture, everything you need to satisfy all that makes you curious. Brand new episodes every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Let's dive in. What is up, crew? Happy Wednesday. And we're still here talking about Bitcoin. But before we jump in, if you haven't seen yet from just this last Saturday, we did our first giveaway. So every single episode, we've been giving something away. So if you want to have your chance to win the prize for this episode, then head over to iTunes or wherever you can review this, give you a review. That's going to get you a raffle ticket and that's going to put you in the drawing to win the prize. So you have a chance every single episode by doing that. Also, if you want to join the curious community, then you can go to CalvinWayman.com forward slash podcast group and you will be you can request to join the Facebook group so that you can join the conversation around all of these episodes, especially the last few that we've been doing. A lot of conversation to be had around Bitcoin. So if you want to join the conversation and not just listen on your way to work on the way back or at the gym, but actually want to join the conversation with other listeners on the podcast, again, go to CalvinWayman.com forward slash podcast group. Anyway, today we have another Bitcoin curious expert, a guy named Jameson Lopp. How are you doing, Jameson? Doing well. It's amazing, exciting times in the crypto space as usual. It is, I have to say one of the reasons I wanted to invite you on not that I not just the fact that I saw you connected with Joel Calm, who we actually had last episode, but that beard dude is freaking sick. Like I've been going mine for about a year. Like yours looks amazing. How long have you had that? It's coming up on, I guess, a little over two years, maybe two and a half years. That's all man. It's a beastie. Have you always had like that streak, like notice that color strand in there? Has that always been like a part of it? What is that? Yeah, I mean, I've had like a really short beard for many years and then I just finally started letting it grow out. And yeah, I guess the little wisp really started appearing once I started growing it longer. That's interesting. The weird work with mine is my hair is black. Everything's dark, but this gets a lot of red. It's the only part of my body. So my word does my beard does funny things there. So again, thanks for coming to chat. Myself and probably other people that are listening right now, we're kind of Bitcoin virgins. Now, of course, we're hearing it on the headlines. Cryptocurrency is a little bit of a craze right now. And I understand you've been in it for a little while, like before the masses came on board and stuff. So when did you like, what's your story? Like, when did you first get into Bitcoin? How'd you hear about it? And what made you curious to look into it? Yeah, it's pretty interesting. I mean, Bitcoin is nine years old. And I guess at this point, I've been involved in it for more than half of its lifetime. So I got into it. It was like late 2012. I started diving headfirst into it. I don't even remember like what first got me interested. It was probably a Slashdot article or something like that. And I'm sure that I had heard about it several times before and dismissed it. I think most people do, you know, oh, that system, it's just going to get hacked. It's going to fall apart. Right. And especially in the early days when it was only like four years old, then it was a lot more experimental, a lot more volatile and a lot more difficult to actually get your hands on any. So, you know, I wanted to get my first bitcoins. And at the time, I looked around and my best option was actually to do a wire transfer to some bank in Japan that I had never heard of. And so, of course, I was sending it to Mt. Gox. And that was the first time I'd ever done a wire transfer, had to go to the bank, spend like 45 minutes there filling out forms and the bankers are telling me, now you understand that once this money leaves your account, we can't get it back. And I was like, I realized the risk that I'm taking. I think this is a good gamble and long term ended up paying. How did you think that? I'm curious. How did you like back then? It's like it's just pennies or dollars, right? Yeah, in terms of like what it's worth. What made you even think that it was a gamble? Were there already like nerd sessions where people are getting together and like talking about how this is like going to be the future of currency? Like, was that already happening? Yeah, yeah. Four years ago. Yeah, so back then the vast majority of conversation was happening on Bitcoin talk and was that like a website or a chat room? That was the original Bitcoin forum. I believe Satoshi actually created it himself and then he handed it over to Themos. These days, I don't really spend any time on there because the vast majority of it is like scams and trolls and you know, it's just a lot of noise. But back then that's where the vast majority of the even the developers were talking. It's where the serious people went. It was where the community formed essentially is what I would guess. Okay, so through that conversation, had you gone to any live events around it yet? Just curious or was it all just online? No, but I was lucky because I started asking around the office about it and it turned out that one of the other guys who, you know, worked just a few feet away from me at the time was already into Bitcoin and had been like writing trading bot software and so he was able to answer the vast majority of my questions early on and then I just kept going head first and head first and surpassed him, you know, going deeper and deeper into it. Got it when you were getting into it. Was it more of a something because this is going to be the future. I'm going to use it as a currency exchange or did you see it as oh my gosh, this could be like an investment opportunity that if I could buy and hold that it's going to go like what was it when you were hearing about it? Yeah, I did not originally buy as an investment. I bought it because I wanted to have some to actually use and play around with like I just saw it as an experiment, you know, an open-source collaborative project back then. I mean there had been one or two bubbles, you know from like a dollar to $30 like it popped up. Yeah, it popped up here and there. Yeah, so it was already really volatile and you know, I got into it with the expectation that it could go to zero. So I didn't put like my life savings into it or anything and then over the years as I understood it better and I saw the ecosystem growing. I started to see it more as an investment. And so it was several years later. In fact, right after Mt. Gox finally crashed and imploded for the last time that was when I was like, all right, there's blood in the streets. Everybody thinks Bitcoin is dead. That's when I went all in and so so just to back up there. I am such this is how much I've heard and you said Mt. Gox or something. Yes, when was that and and what is that? Like I'm not even privy to what that is. So Mt. Gox was the biggest Bitcoin exchange in the like 2011 to 2014 era. Got it. It was the platform that used to go buy and trade. Yeah, it was the most popular one. There were a few others and of course there had already been some that had come and gone and gotten hacked and crashed and whatever, but it was at the time the most reputable. It had been around the longest. It had suffered a few hacks, but it always come back from them. And so then, you know, finally during that that run up to like a thousand dollars or so that's when things started getting really wonky and they started like disabling withdrawals and people started panicking and eventually they shut down and admitted that they were operating a fractional reserve and they had lost almost everybody's money. I see. So they actually were kind of being a little bit fraudulent kind of pyramid scheming. The speculation these days is that they had been operating as a fractional reserve for probably the vast majority of their existence and it wasn't until the price really started running away that they were no longer able to facilitate the withdrawals that people were requesting. What's kind of interesting about that is isn't that what most banks do anyway? Yes, like our regular banking system. It is on a fractional reserve system. Like if you have X and out they can like borrow out like way more than they actually have. Yeah. And so, you know, there after the 2008 economic crisis a lot of those regulations around the like solvency requirements were made more strict, but I'm pretty sure that like the the general assets on hand of most banks is only around by 10 or 20% of the actual deposits. I've gotten a little bit more insight into this over the years because I'm actually on the advisory board for my local credit union and they have even stricter requirements that they set on themselves for being able to do those stress tests, but you know a lot of the other banks. Just so they don't put themselves in a position to like if that happened again, like they're not going to go and they're not going to be put themselves in a like lose everything bankrupt type of situation. Yeah, it's when those those bank runs happen when you know, they run out of liquidity and investors panic and then it just sort of turns into this runaway of demand for people's money and then they're no longer able to serve it. Hence 2008, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's this one. Everybody's worried about bubbles because bubbles pop and they turn into these corrections where by the time it's over a lot of people have lost a lot of money. Do you fear that what's happening now? So from what I understand is Bitcoin just barely went like it went up to like 20,000 now. So you got in a time. It was like just dollars, right? Why is it less than a dollar? So and then it's gone all the way up to 20,000 and right now it hit like 9 or something. It's like now at 11 or 12. Is that right? Like what's your take on that volatility still happening? And if it does it like is it fearful? Is it scary or how do you take it? Yeah, so well, you know, that is a different type of bubble though. You know, those are speculative bubbles, which I think are because of everybody coming on type of a thing. Yeah, it's it's not the same type of systemic risk that we see in these systems where a lot of money is being moved around and money is being created out of thin air and then that's when you no longer have the Federal Reserve. Yeah. And so that's where you get in the issue where like people believe there's more money in existence than they can actually call in. Right. So there there are still issues, especially around the fact that there are a lot of large custodians that are holding bitcoins. Thankfully over the years, it seems like the large hacking attempts have like been diminishing in their severity. So, you know, we are becoming better and better at securing crypto assets and that's what I've been doing for the past three years is working at BitGo and basically helping enterprises secure their crypto. Yeah, what is that? So talk to me more about that because I noticed you had that like what's BitGo and what's it for? What's it do? Yeah, so generally the average person who is in the crypto ecosystem has not heard of BitGo and that's because we're not a consumer facing company. What we really yeah, we're b2b company and we are really servicing enterprises that have to operate hot wallets meaning they have to be money now to have to be receiving and sending crypto assets, you know in an automated fashion. So that's a very risky business to be in because you know, if anybody gets those private keys, they can take the money and there's no authority that can get the money back to you. Okay, so you're doing that second to that. What is Satoshi? I like the play on that's the play on what's his name again or the group of people Satoshi Nakamoto, Satoshi Nakamoto and what's your take on that by the way, is that like a single person? Like are you along like do you buy into that like since you've been in it that long or or what who is Satoshi Nakamoto? So Satoshi Nakamoto you can get into a lot of different speculation and conspiracy theories. I think that you know, it is a person or a small group of people who were cypherpunks like they were they were on the cypherpunk mailing list and they were dealing with cryptography and privacy issues for a number of years and somehow they managed to figure out a way that they could put all of these existing technologies together in a way that created the awesome game theory that resulted in Bitcoin, which is a fairly, you know, sustainable system. So like they didn't really create anything new. They just managed to put these different pieces of the puzzle together in a way that created a new system. Has anybody come around or come about and claimed to be him or the group? Yeah, well, of course we have Craig Wright who is the most notorious Satoshi Nakamoto claimant and there's a whole lot of drama and history around that and his like attempts to prove to be Satoshi but the short version is like anyone who wants to prove that they're Satoshi all they have to do is either sign a message or move some of the bitcoins from those early blocks that were known to have been mined by him and that would be, you know, cryptographic mathematical proof that yeah, it's just so that they because they would have ownership of it and you would see that moving like whoever moved that had access to it and whoever had access to it was probably Satoshi Nakamoto. Yeah, yeah. So what's a what's the Toshi the play on this Satoshi Nakamoto? So Satoshi is my fork of Bitcoin core, which is often known as the reference client. It is the Bitcoin protocol implementation that has the most developer activity around it. Basically back in 2014. I wanted to understand the code better. I wanted to understand the internal operations of fully validating nodes better. And basically what I did is I took some of my existing knowledge in the sort of DevOps space and went in and added a bunch of instrumentation to the Bitcoin core code and then put some nice eye candy dashboards on top of it. And essentially what you've got now is a bunch of metrics aggregation and analytics of like what is going on on the Bitcoin network and what is going on inside of this node that I'm running. So is that something that's like a plugin that anybody can have or or what what is that? Yeah, it's so it's open source fork. Basically, it would require a fair amount of knowledge for somebody to get in and run on their own unit. You at least have to have the ability to compile C++ and then run the binaries and I've got instructions all on there, but it's very technical thing. You'd want to be like really actually really into that. Yeah, one thing I was curious about is like throughout all of this. So Bitcoin was kind of the the pioneer of cryptocurrency, right? So since then there have been a number of cryptocurrencies that have come on the frontier. When I was talking to Joel calm, I think he said there's like 1400 different cryptocurrencies at least that we know of right and so can you like kind of explain to me like like are you still like a bit? Are you are you more of a fan of Bitcoin or cryptocurrency in general or blockchain in general? We haven't even talked about the technology of blockchain like like where do you land? Is it are you more of like cryptocurrency is the purest because it's the first you like other cryptocurrencies in general and you have like Ethereum or Ripple or whatever some of these other names are like what's your take there? Yeah, so in general, I'm still the biggest fan of Bitcoin for a number of reasons. It gets pretty complicated because you've got a couple of different I guess generally broad types of crypto assets. So you've got your you've got Bitcoin, which is of course the first and then you've got a million different forks of Bitcoin many of which are completely worthless. Worthless because there's no consensus around it because other people don't want to use it. What's what makes it useful or yeah, so the you know, the value of any of these things is entirely subjective and based upon network effective. So like the more people who agree that it has value the more value it has hence the reason it even works right because Joel was telling me how like there's this process of of when you send something to somebody like they're like that's what the mining is or whatever. Like there needs to be at least six computers or systems that validate that transaction, right? So is that kind of saying what you're saying where the network effect like the validation of people agreeing that's what gives it the value on the markets. Yeah, then of course there's technical aspects on the sort of machine consensus side, but each of so there's suffice to say because it's open source code anybody can like copy paste modify it then you have all of these spinoffs that there's really nothing special about them as they tweaked like one or two little parameters that nobody really cares about and so as a result, there's not a lot of traction not a lot of adoption because then when you're really talking about the value of these things from a network standpoint, it's not just like the number of people that agree and want to use it, but you have to get exchanges to add support for it businesses and merchants to add support for him. So this is a multifaceted type of network effect that is required to give value to these things. Is there is there one besides Bitcoin that you have a favorite of that's a cryptocurrency because of the certain features that it has like Joe was telling me like there's somewhere you can like attach like contracts to it right or something. So if somebody paid in some sort of cryptocurrency and you were an artist and you had the contract set up that not only the singer gets paid, but the drum player gets paid the manager gets paid like kind of instantly split apart without have like kind of instantly. That's just where it all goes. Like do you have something like that because of some special feature you like it like the cryptocurrency or yeah, so I mainly consider myself like a cypherpunk in terms of my ideology some very, you know, pro privacy. So I am invested in a few of the privacy coins like Monero and Zcash. I think that you know, those have some additional utility and also they have good developers behind them. So, you know when I'm trying to decide what I want to invest in I'm usually looking at it as like this is a project I want to support whereas, you know, a lot of people are just trading and they're like this is a project that I think a lot of other people are going to buy and so it's going to go up and then I'm going to sell it. I don't do that type of trading. I'm more of a long-term value like fundamentals investor, but you were asking about smart contracts and stuff. So then you start talking about stuff like Ethereum and Cardano and I think NIM and I think that that type of functionality is definitely has a lot of utility and you can see that just like from the price of Ether over the past year. But the main reason that I'm not as bullish on that is because I'm not a big fan of the way that they've implemented it. I think that they're going to have a lot more scaling challenges in the long run and I think that we're going to see similar type of functionality that gets tied to Bitcoin, but because Bitcoin protocol developers have a very different perspective on how to add functionality. They tend to be a lot more conservative about like resource usage that instead you're going to see these type of smart contract computations happen off the chain like outside of the consensus system and then instead you're just going to see the small amounts of data get embedded into the chain itself, but that's that's a more like long-term type of operation. When did the wave of new crypto start coming? You've been in there like you about four years you said, right? So and Bitcoin was a cryptocurrency is it a pretty fair consensus that people mostly people agree that Bitcoin was the first cryptocurrency definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So since then again around 1400 that we know of when did that wave come on? There have been a couple of waves of other ones. I would say the first waves was around 2013 or so like there was this big altcoin. That's fairly late. That's fairly late, but that was that was this altcoin boom where it was just a lot of people forking the Bitcoin code and making very trivial changes and and so the vast majority of those coins that popped up around that time. Nobody even talks about them anymore if they even exist or operate and then I would say like the next big point was really with Ethereum when it came out and I think that it came out in 2015 2016 and after it had been around for a year or two people started developing apps and then especially when the ERC 20 token became a standard that's when we see this other big wave of of the sort of tokenized utility tokens, you know on top of a theory and that has been that was a huge boom in 2017. We do have, you know, a couple of other completely from scratch coins that have emerged at this point that are in like the top 10 market cap. Are you concerned by that competition like because in America we pretty much have had one I mean, of course you can buy different things but mostly for holdings like you could buy gold silver and like these assets, but we pretty much have USD as the currency of exchange the means of exchange and now there's all of these different currencies that again are multifaceted. So you could use it for an investment opportunity or you could do use it as a means of exchange what you're like, how do you take like that that there are becoming so many like is there is it a danger in the competition? Is it better? Do you think one's going to rise is Bitcoin already there like what? Yeah, just curious how you feel about all the more competition is great and even competition within like the own coin of, you know, forking like Bitcoin for example, and so there then, you know, in late 2017 we had this other boom which was the Bitcoin like altcoin airdrop where you're forking it at a specific time and basically giving money to everybody who owned Bitcoin at that point in time as it's a new sort of like distribution mechanism to try to jumpstart a new network and and the same type of thing happened where like Bitcoin cash and Bitcoin gold were the first couple there. And so they got a fair amount of traction and then we've there have been I think a dozen after that and then, you know, nobody cares like there's only so that you end up with a long tail distribution because there's only so much interest and and resources that you can capture from the network by just like creating more of these things. Okay, I think I take that view too that over all the law. I mean, that's the nature of it, right? Is that it's giving control back to I guess the masses and not like one central organization like the Federal Reserve so competition and like open sources is probably better for for at least the everyone at the end of the day. Yeah, I mean the way that I see it is that this isn't taking power away from banks and governments and how they decide how their own money operates. This is allowing anybody with like some technical skills to create their own money and start printing it and offer it to the world and then the markets can decide like what are the best properties of money and that's kind of the phase that we're in right now is everybody's interesting and then people are speculating on the experiments. So would you say that that everybody is kind of in a sense becoming their own Federal Reserve because the Federal Reserve would go bust if nobody everybody just said, yeah, this is worthless same with crypto. But if like is like that's kind of an interesting thing like we're given the freedom that we could create it. And of course other people need to have consensus and for it to be valuable and everything. But would you say that that it's kind of like we all have our own like you said our ability to print money. Are we becoming our own Federal Reserve? Well, yeah, so because money is basically a shared you can say it's a shared delusion of value. It's just a shit. It is faith in a sense you are agreeing with each other and you are having faith that people will continue to agree that there is value in the system and the main difference is that now instead of us having to have faith in a central bank or government that is telling us we have to believe in the value of this particular system instead anyone can choose their own. This is crypto anarchy. It is it is not a system without rules. It is a system without rulers and you get to choose the rules that you find most palatable. So taking kind of a step back now, like what's the big picture for this for you for cryptocurrency in this whole world like how I imagine this is it's almost like it's 1993 or whatever and we're talking about this thing called the internet and we're trying to explain to other people that know like it's this like web of network and you can send information back and forth and we're going to be able to send zeros and ones and bits and bytes and one day we'll be able to like communicate on the other side of the world instantaneously and we'll be able to send money from our banks through ones and zeros like it would have been a very confusing thing. But now we take it for granted because it's like right here in the palm of our hands with our phone and everything and it's just encompasses our entire life like big picture like that. Do you feel like cryptocurrency or the whole blockchain like world is something that is about to make a huge cultural shift that we can't go back on like what's the big picture view of this? Yeah. And so I often make remarks where I am comparing this current innovation to the internet itself where the internet basically fundamentally changed how humans can communicate and just that very small but fundamental thing then allowed many many different innovations to be piled on top of it as a new platform. Amazon social platforms all that stuff. Yeah. And so now what we're doing is we're creating a new type of network for economic interaction and and you could you take a very naive view and just say, oh, it's just people sending money back and forth. But there's so much more to it because we're automating it. We're getting rid of a lot of the trust. We can actually create entirely new methods of economic interaction that were never feasible before. So good example, of course, is micro payments and we're really talking about like penny payments. If not sub penny payments, you can start to talk about really amazing things of like Internet of Things meets crypto economics where we start having these little devices on the internet start economically interacting with each other. That's where, you know, the sort of automation of the future and interconnection of everything starts to provide a lot of interesting new possibilities. What's just kind of wrapping up here. One thing we haven't talked about yet is blockchain. What is blockchain and how does it interact with all of this? Blockchain is very loaded term that gets used incorrectly the vast majority of the time. And so, of course, I'm a tech guy. Blockchain is just a data format. It's really a lot of the other things around blockchains that make them interesting. Is there something you could compare it to that is like more of that like analogous or like that you could say it's like the Internet or it's like this other platform that we can kind of that we can relay it to? Yeah, so, you know, the best or at least easiest way to think of it is it's like it's a write-only log. Like it's a new type of data store where you can add stuff to it, but you can't delete stuff. Delete it's like the it's the ledger where the transactions go, right? Yeah, and but of course then you have to start talking about well, what are all of the other facets of the system that is using this blockchain as a database because really if all you have is a blockchain and you don't have any consensus mechanisms or anything else around it, then it's still possible for someone to go and rewrite it. It's just you get this tamper evidence because you'll see that like someone has changed the data and it breaks this cryptographic link between pieces of the data. It's Bitcoin adds additional guarantees on top of that by using proof of work as a consensus mechanism, which makes it insanely computationally and financially challenging to go back and rewrite the data. It becomes very expensive from the like electricity standpoint. Did Satoshi Nakamoto create the blockchain mechanism to or just the cryptocurrency Bitcoin? Yeah, so blockchain I believe as a like data format had been created at least five or ten years before that and got it. So it's pretty what was it used for before? I'm not aware of any like production usage of it. Like most of these things including like proof of work had only really been theoretical. So like Adam Back created a hashcash in the late 90s and that was actually originally meant to be an anti-spam mechanism for email, but it just never took off for one reason or another. You know, I was actually in the email industry for like the first 10 years of my career and at one point I did look into like adding hashcash email headers to all of our outgoing stuff because there is some anti-spam software that would actually give you like a better score if you did that, but in general like nobody ended up using it, but then you know Satoshi comes along and says, oh, you know, we can actually use this as a sort of denial of service protection against someone rewriting the blockchain. And so we're just going to use it to make it very expensive for someone to rewrite the blockchain and that will give us some better data guarantees for the history of this ledger. Where are you using it now? Like how are you using cryptocurrency right now? Is it still a new frontier? More people are coming on board, but it's hit the point where it's definitely mainstream because it's hitting all the major headlines. Your cab drivers talking about it. I can't remember if that was Warren Buffett or whoever that once your cab driver starts talking about something that's when you know, you really need to be cautious and careful. Are you using it for a means of exchange at all yet? Are you using it for currency exchange? Are you mostly just buying and holding and playing with it still? Like how have you personally been using it since you've been in it for like four years? Yeah, I've never really used it to buy everyday items and there's you know, there's been a lot of people who have been upset especially with regard to the scaling debates and stuff who they're sad that certain things have gotten priced out of being like economically feasible on Bitcoin lately. But like for the vast majority of purchases like I personally, you know living in a country that has really good financial infrastructure. I have a ton of credit cards. My bank account is hooked up to all kinds of different services. Most of most of my bills get auto drafted. It's like I don't need to pay with cryptocurrency for the vast majority of things like the real promise of crypto assets I believe is that a you can store your own money without trusting a third party like a bank or some other service and b you can transact without trusting a third party that could censor your transaction. So I think that there are types of transactions that are very well suited for crypto and that would be stuff like donating to political organizations that might get censored by payment network. So like WikiLeaks is a really good example and they've benefited a lot from Bitcoin or you know doing things that are like gray market black market type stuff right. But you know I do hope that we will get to the point where payment for like regular everyday stuff is feasible again. You know once we have more mainstream second layer networks that's been progressing very very quickly just over the past few months and I'm actually looking forward to using some of my crypto assets to help capitalize the second layer networks and may even end up getting a sort of income from that without going into too many of the complexities basically. If you're running nodes on the lightning network you can take tiny fees for helping to route the money around the network. Sure cool. So let's say more people people listen to this myself. We want to go deeper in the rabbit hole. What's been your means of like understanding it historically and like and what's the best means today in 2018? What if we want to learn more about Bitcoin? Where's the most or cryptocurrency blockchain the most high-level quality information outside of I guess just YouTubing it and going down the rabbit hole there like do you have a place that we can start? Yeah, and just due to the nature of the system like so much information is spread out all over the place and I started collecting and centralizing the information on my website a few years ago. Awesome. So what's your website? It's just lop.net l-o-p-p dot net lop.net. Yeah, I've got a Bitcoin resources page on there that has lots of sections, you know, whether you're interested in like the technicals deep dive stuff trading stuff learning more about securing your own pretty much everything that you need to know is on there and there's probably enough material on there to keep you busy for six months to a year. Awesome. Okay. So if you're listening to this you want to learn more about Bitcoin cryptocurrency blockchain go to lop l-o-p-p dot net. I'm going to go over there right after this interview because again, yes, sometimes just hearing it first second third fourth time. That's when you finally click and the light bulb goes off. And so that's what I'm aiming to do here. Is there anywhere else to that people could interact with you? Are you on any of the socials at all Facebook or Instagram or anything like that? Spend most of my time on Twitter and the handle is just lop l-o-p-p. That is man. So simple. I freaking love it. Just l-o-p-p like yeah, if you can some somebody's tell me like somebody who got the first initial to their name on Instagram and it's now worth like thousands of dollars because everybody so many other people want it like that's that's super simple. So if you want to interact with my man Jameson lop you can interact with him on Twitter. Just go to l-o-p-p on Twitter. Hey Jameson. Thank you so much man for coming on and shedding a little bit of light on this new but exciting world of cryptocurrency. And yeah, we just greatly appreciate it. My pleasure. All right. And again, if you want to put your name in the raffle for the prize for this episode will be given away the prize in within 48 hours. We'll probably do it within the Facebook group. So again to get a raffle ticket for the prize then go make a review for the podcast and that gives you a raffle ticket to win the prize and if you want to join the conversation around Bitcoin or any other the episodes then go over to the Facebook page. You can request to join by going to CalvinWehman.com forward slash podcast group. Thanks guys. Have a good rest of your Wednesday.