What is real? How do you define real? You can't jump into cash. Cash is trash. What do you do? You get out. Jameson Lopp, Cypherpunk, co-founder and CTO of CASA, editor of Bitcoin Times and creator of satoshi.info, bitcoin.page, and lightning.how. And also joining us is Nick Newman, the CEO of CASA. CASA specializes in helping people improve their personal sovereignty, safety. Jameson Lopp and Nick Newman, welcome to the Bitcoin Matrix podcast. How are you guys? Great. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Doing well. Awesome. Well, it's great to have you guys here. I mean, full disclosure, I'm a longtime CASA user, but it even took myself a long time to understand why I wanted to own my own keys or what that meant or how to do it. How to gain confidence in that and even to even grow, you know, sometimes you think about how much you might have exposed. And if you only have a couple hundred thousand satoshis, you know, maybe it's better for you to stay on the exchange. And, you know, today I'd love to kind of talk a lot about like, you know, let's say we were at a barbecue, and there was several people listening to us. There's a variety of people here where some don't even own Bitcoin, don't even know what we're talking about. Some own a little bit of Bitcoin. Maybe someone owns $2,000, $3,000 worth of Bitcoin and maybe someone's got, you know, a million dollars in grayscale. And they're thinking about, you know, taking self custody and selling grayscale for Bitcoin and how to secure it. So how would you guys like kind of walk someone through like what a single signature hardware wallet is or paper wallet or even multi signature? Yeah. So the first thing that I would say is that I would assume these people are not really familiar with what self custody means. So the first thing I would say is Bitcoin acts, even though it's digital, it acts a lot more like cash than it does like dollars on a credit card. So with dollars on a credit card, let's say somebody steals that credit card, and they go swipe it somewhere and buy something that you didn't approve. Well, you can always call your bank and say, put that back on my card. That was a fraudulent transaction and they'll do it. But with Bitcoin, it's a lot more like cash. And so let's say you have $20 of cash in your wallet and you lose that wallet or somebody steals that wallet. There's no calling anybody to get it back. So you have to protect that cash that you hold in a lot different way than you have to protect your credit card. And so Bitcoin is a lot like that. So if you're storing any amount of value in Bitcoin and you lose it or if it's stolen from you, there's really no getting it back. So you really have to have a different security model for your Bitcoin from the start. And that's where holding your own keys comes into play here, because holding your own keys means that you are the only person that has access to and control over your Bitcoin. If you lose that key, there's nobody that can help you get it back. So you have to make sure you really protect that key. And this is where we get into what you were talking about with single signature versus multi signature. A single signature Bitcoin wallet basically means that one key protects your Bitcoin. And a key is like a password that's really long and difficult to remember. So you're not you're not going to remember it. And so you have it built into some software and an app or hardware wallet or something like that. And that single key is actually what's approving sending Bitcoin when you send it. And it also lets you receive Bitcoin. So then that single signature wallet with that one key can be a single point of failure, because if you lose that key, like I said, your Bitcoin's gone. Now, this gets into what multi signature is. With multi signature, you have more than one key protecting your Bitcoin. So if you lose, if you do it right, if you lose one of those keys, it actually means you don't lose access to your Bitcoin, because you still have the other keys to that are still protecting and giving you access to that Bitcoin. So at a really high level, that's an explanation of why Bitcoin security is different than normal digital money that we're used to using every day. And then also what the keys really mean. And so what do you think the trade offs are between convenience and security when it comes to your private keys. So if we're talking here about like a signal, a single signature hot wallet on your phone, verse, you know, cold storage, and what is that spectrum like of security. Yeah, Jameson, you want to hit that one. So there are a variety of trade offs. And I think in general, one of the reasons why people end up in less secure positions is because normally, you are making a trade off between convenience and security, and the the most convenient ways to to use or interact with Bitcoin are generally going to be the ones where you don't even have control of the keys. And this is because as you are taking advantage of some of these fundamental features of Bitcoin, you have to take ownership and therefore take responsibility for managing the keys. And that is where things can get very tricky. There's a very deep amount of knowledge that could be required to do all of the best practices to know the million possible things that could go wrong. And this is where we at Casa believe there is a big opportunity to try to bridge the gap there so that people don't have to be security experts in order to feel confident enough to take on the responsibility of being your own bank, it's always been possible to be your own bank in Bitcoin. But a lot of people who went that route in the early years ended up losing everything and hitting some sort of catastrophic loss. So, really, what we have done is we've built a product that bakes a lot of that knowledge into the software. But instead of interacting with Bitcoin through some other intermediary who is making things easier for you, whether that's the exchange that you bought it or some other brokerage who then slaps a really nice user interface on top of what is essentially just their own database, we're trying to provide that level of convenience, but slap it on top of self custody and key management. So, there's a wide variety of different setups that you can get into. But I think the easiest way for newcomers to differentiate is, do you actually have your own Bitcoin, or do you have to ask permission from someone else in order to use that Bitcoin? Right. And so then, if we would contrast paper wallet and seed versus seedless, and maybe on the other hand, geographically distributed multistick setup, what is the comparison there between convenience and security on that spectrum? So, I think that the difference is this. As you increase in the level of Bitcoin that you're holding, you need to increase the level of security that you're putting around that Bitcoin. And so, a paper wallet actually isn't, they aren't in use quite as much as they used to be. They were more popular in the early days of Bitcoin, but they were really tough to use. And a lot of people actually lost money just by messing up using a paper wallet. So, those have been really phased out in favor of software and dedicated hardware. And so, then you kind of get into the question of what is a seed phrase and what does it mean to be seedless? And so, after paper wallets, Bitcoin wallets evolved to have this new type of backup called a seed phrase, which was basically a human readable set of words ranging from 12 to 24 words that you could write down. And that was your private key on a piece of paper or stored on metal, or some people keep it on a password manager, even though you're not really supposed to. And so, the seed phrases were the next level up from a paper wallet. You would have a Bitcoin wallet on your phone or on a hardware wallet. And you would actually just write down the seed phrase for it because in case you ever lost that hardware wallet, you would be able to regain access to that key and still access your Bitcoin using your seed phrase. But the problem with seed phrases is that, one, they're still pretty confusing for people. Not many people are even good at securing their passwords to Facebook. So, how are they going to secure a 24 random string of words on a piece of paper, right? And so, that's the first problem is that people aren't used to managing that information well. And then the second is just that it feels uncomfortable and causes a lot of anxiety. You know, you don't feel really safe storing $50,000, which is one Bitcoin, on a piece of paper with 24 words. So, what we've then done with CASA is taken multisig, which, like we explained earlier, means multiple keys protect your Bitcoin. And with multisig, since losing one key doesn't matter anymore, it also doesn't matter that you need to actually restore that key if you lose it. So, seed phrases came into being to restore keys in case you lose them. And when you take the CASA model of realizing that if you lose a key, you don't need to restore it, you just replace it, then you no longer need to worry about keeping seed phrases. And so, that's how we invented this model called Seedless, which basically makes it significantly easier and more secure for somebody to manage their Bitcoin. Right. Yeah, I think it's really interesting with the Seedless and the multiple keys, you really eliminate that single point of failure. And I think before we dive more into that, what are some of the risks that when you entrust your keys to someone else? Like, maybe you like, you know, the interface at the exchange where you bought your Bitcoin or, you know, that's where you like to stack stats. What are some of the risks that you have there? Well, I think I think of it in terms of sort of subsets and supersets in the sense that whoever is managing a single key can lose it or have it taken from them in a wide variety of ways. If, you know, if you're the one holding that key, then all of these bad things can happen. If someone else is holding that key on behalf of you all of those same bad things can happen. However, additionally, you now have another set of threats, which is the security risk, which is that person could collude or do something against you because they want your money or because they are coerced by some other entity in order to taking your money so I see it as a higher risk. Some people see it as a lower risk because they think you know if we have security experts who are taking care of this, then they're less likely to screw it up than I am. And there is there's some, you know, validity to that at least historically. But also, historically large providers exchanges custodians and whatnot are much larger targets their their honeypots because they may have hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars worth of value all in one place therefore, they're going to get a lot more scrutiny and much higher level of sophisticated attackers coming at them. And the, the argument that you want to use an exchange or any some other custodian because it's easier and you can trust somebody else to properly manage those keys better is becoming less and less relevant as the software for managing your keys gets better and also has really been trying to lead the way here where our experience for holding your own keys is, in some cases, you know for like our free wallet for example, it is just as simple as using Coinbase, but you are using you're holding your own keys. And for our multi six solutions there, there are a few more steps than just logging into Coinbase, but we've made it so simple and so well designed where our app just walks you through every step of the way and then our client service team is actually there to get on with you if you want to if you need that extra assistance to set things up. That is, those things make it so much easier, and so much less anxiety inducing to hold your own keys that the arguments for not holding your keys are just becoming slimmer Right. Yeah, I agree there 100% I mean, I really appreciated my onboarding process to CASA. That was a big factor in not just my research before I came on board but my satisfaction of being a client. But part of my exploration there, and my journey was like trying to figure out why is it not good to split up my funds between like say a single signature wallet and various paper wallets. Yeah, so this was, this was kind of the old way of of storing large amounts of Bitcoin. So, because there was single point of failure risk before people really could use multisig, where if you lost that hardware wallet or if you lost that piece of paper you lost all of the Bitcoin tied to it. The way that people would handle it is they would actually put a little bit of Bitcoin on this wallet, and a little bit of Bitcoin on this piece of paper. And so then if you lost any one of those you didn't lose all of your net worth, you kept, you know, depending on how much you split it up you kept the majority of your Bitcoin or a third of your Bitcoin, whatever it was. Now, with multisig where if you lose a key it's, you don't lose a piece of your funds you you lose zero funds by losing one key. This means that you don't need to try and keep track of all of these different keys everywhere and actually we like to say that simplicity is security so keeping your setup as simple as possible helps you remember how to access it because a lot more people lose Bitcoin due to making mistakes than lose Bitcoin, because somebody stole it from them. And so you want to make it easy for you to remember how you set this up. And so with multisig when you know you've removed this single point of failure losing a key doesn't mean losing any Bitcoin you actually have to lose more than one key at the same time to lose you have a lot more leeway and therefore you should make it simple on yourself and put all of your cold storage kind of long term savings funds in the most secure multisig wallet that you have. Now what people can do and what people do, including me, is you can keep most of your Bitcoin in your, let's say three of five multisig your, your highest level of security, but then you want to have some Bitcoin that maybe you need to use to pay people every once in a while, or that you want to be able to have to spend on, you know, whatever it is you want it to be easier to spend that Bitcoin. Well, that's like the amount of cash that you carry in your wallet versus how much cash you have in the bank. So you have your checking account you have your savings account, and the checking account is less secure, but it's easier to spend from. And so you keep a smaller amount of money there. And then in your savings account your three of five multisig you keep the majority of your money and that way, you know that that the bulk of your savings are protected. Right. Yeah, I agree. What are some, you know, maybe technical weaknesses users create for themselves when kind of going on that single signature wallet or the paper wallet. You know whether it's even they think that you're by splitting up the seed phrase they're gaining security, you know, and then verse you know some of the options you have at casa with below the three out of five you have the two out of three even. So maybe you could walk, walk us through that. Yeah, so I mean, this is one of the reasons that a lot of people have gotten themselves in trouble is because you're only really limited by your own creativity if you're architecting your own bank. You know the, the Bitcoin protocol of course has many rules that you must abide by when you're you're creating transactions. But when it comes to actually storing and managing keys that that's not a protocol thing like the network doesn't know anything about your keys and your network never sees the keys that only sees the results of using those keys. So, this is why people have created all types of convoluted schemes that they may appear more secure but what they're really doing is creating more obscurity and they're creating more complexity and more complexity, generally means more points of failure more points of loss. This could be a loss due to something that the user themselves has has screwed up and can, you know, no longer access something they need to access. And also, we find that a lot of users don't think about end of life planning issues, and so they may have created a very convoluted scheme that they can reproduce, but have not sufficiently tested with their beneficiaries that those people would need to recover and and reproduce all of the steps necessary. In fact, a common theme that we see even amongst the people who have gone to the links of thinking about end of life scenarios is that usually what people end up doing is creating what is essentially a treasure map or a scavenger hunt. And I know this full well because I did something very similar, like back in 2015 or so. I went to the trouble of creating a will solely so that I could have some description of how to recover my private keys in there. But even then, even though I spent some time creating instructions and reading through them myself. I was never 100% sure that even though I had some technical executors that they would be able to to reconstruct everything. So, you know, it's just the sheer volume of choices and decisions means that like the likelihood that a novice will construct something that takes into account, a decade of experience and a decade of people losing and having, you know, catastrophic losses that we've learned the hard way is very, very slim that someone will be able to architect that. And even what we found is that, you know, people who have been in the space for five or 10 years and even people who are very technically sophisticated. Such as myself like one of the reasons why I started casa was because even though I had been working in the space full time for a number of years I was spending basically a whole weekend every year, refreshing my cold storage setup and I realized there was so much complexity that there was probably some brittle and weak aspects of it and that's, that's once again why we think that you know there was a great opportunity here to make it easier for normal people who they don't want to spend a large portion of their life worrying about this stuff they just want it to work and they want to have the peace of mind. How do you know, I'd love to, you know, break down that complexity to the simplicity of how does casa multisake protect someone against the $5 wrench attack. Yeah. It's interesting how often this is a question that comes up, considering how rare it actually is. And in fact this is one of my side projects is keeping track of physical attacks against Bitcoin holders. And I think it's only in the realm of like 50 or 60 attacks that we know of total in the entire history. Right, but but still you know, we have people who have adversarial mindsets and some people come in and want the extreme level of like nation state resistance, you know, which can be very hard but definitely possible to attain if you're willing to put in the effort. And so, the thing about physical coercion. In a $5 wrench attacks is that the only way to protect your keys from that type of attack is for you not to have access to those keys, or at least to to have your keys in a distributed set of different locations that would make it in feasible for an attacker you know holding you under duress and taking you through all of those different security mechanisms, you know, this is one of the reasons why we recommend having at least one key in a highly physically secure safety deposit box you know, something where there are other authentication mechanisms in place to make sure that you know you are the one who is going in to access the key and that you're not under dress and, and then we also have mechanisms of course around the casa recovery key to protect against that type of stuff as well. So, yeah, the short version is that there's no specific like technical aspect or any part of the Bitcoin protocol that can really protect you from this. You know short of something like doing a time lock or something which which no wallet makes very easy to do. That's a whole other complexity involved in wallets that I've written some blog posts about. So unless you have something at that level that would make it so literally no one in the entire world can access it. Then you have to, you have to just think about you know how you're distributing the keys to make sure that, you know, once again it's not a single point of failure where someone can just walk up to you and say okay transfer everything you know that this is the reason why people, or at least, hopefully, people don't keep their entire life savings under their mattress at home. This is why we have specialized vaulting services with high security to make sure that it's not easy for an attacker to just come up and wipe you out. Yeah, I mean, definitely reading a lot of your blog posts over the years, I definitely bridged, help me bridge the gap between sort of security and and Bitcoin security so physical security in the real world and like you wrote a blog about you know, a home defense primer. And you mentioned like thinking like a thief. So there's two types of people who may want to enter your home and either take from your home your Bitcoin or hurt you in this regard the way I'm drawing the parallel. So you got burglars who are just looking for an opportunity to score some valuable items so some low hanging fruit, and you got violent attackers who are specifically targeting you with the intention of causing harm or I would add here like that have insight knowledge about where to find things and so what do you think about like duress or decoy wallets. It's, I think it's kind of a psychological issue right you know, people want me to give technical answers for this type of stuff and you know, obviously, it's possible to create a duress or a decoy wallet you know you just create a different wallet and like you use a different password or different login or what have you. So, the reason this is more of a psychological question is because you have to ask what is the goal of a decoy wallet well the goal is you find yourself in the worst case scenario where you are being coerced by someone, and they're they're telling you to hand over the money. And the question becomes, could you hand over a relatively small amount of money and appease them and make them go away. And, you know, the answer to, could you hand, hand over the money, you know, obviously that's a yes, but it's a big open question of, will it appease them and make them go away, because you don't know what knowledge the attacker has, like you said, if you are in this situation, it's probably someone who has taken enough time and effort to learn as much as possible about you and they probably have a number in their head that they're looking for. And you know who knows what level of research they may have done to come up with various estimates of how much they think you have and if you offer them a pittance, you know, in return, you may only make them angrier you may end up aggravating the situation. You know, there's no guarantees as to how they're going to react. If, if you give them a relatively small amount so. So yeah, I mean, I don't, I certainly don't think that that's a panacea. It's not something that I really recommend because I think it's just adding extra, extra complexity. And, you know, if you have a duress wallet. You know, we could probably spend a lot of time talking about this but I can think of so many things that could go wrong, for example, you might not remember how to access it, you know, if you're actually in a high stress situation. You might end up accessing it but then it might be very apparent that it's not a real wallet because if you set it up like five years ago and there's no activity on it, then they might look at it and be like this doesn't look like your real wallet. Yeah, it's, it's not an obvious winnable game and in my opinion, I think much better to try to prevent yourself from getting in that situation. The way that the way that casa approaches this instead of having a duress wallet we do two things. So the first is with a casa setup if you've distributed your keys correctly. It's impossible for you to hand over your Bitcoin to that attacker if somebody's with you in person. So, just to give a quick example of this let's say you're using our, our gold plan which is a two of three multi SIG. That means you have three keys, protecting your Bitcoin, and you have to approve any transaction from two of them. So, if each of these keys is in a different location you know one keys maybe on your phone with you all the time. One key is on a hardware wallet that is in a access controlled location like a bank safety deposit box or, you know, what a vault of some sort. Those are the third keys held by casa and casa only signs with that key upon your explicit approval and a bunch of other security measures that have to get passed. If somebody shows up to your house and they says, they say send me all your Bitcoin, you can very truthfully say I cannot send you my Bitcoin, unless you take me and we go to this vault, and I authenticate with the people that security guards there who are then, you know, letting me in to access this other key and, and the vast majority of attackers will not go through with that scenario, because they really, it's extremely dangerous for them. The other thing is that what casa is built in, specifically for our more premium tiers which is our platinum and diamond levels is, we actually have a feature in the app called emergency lockdown. So if you think somebody is breaking into your house to try and attack you, you can hit this emergency lockdown button. It will completely lock your casa account so that you can see nothing in the app and nothing is able to be sent through casa's servers. And it will also send our client service team a notification, and it says hey so and so lockdown their account. And we actually have duress procedures set up with each of our premium clients that says, if they hit emergency lockdown, call this person, or call the police, or do X thing. And so that provides an additional layer of service layer of security that you just don't really have with setting up your own decoy wallet. So there's, there's definitely better ways to go about protecting against in person attackers than a decoy wallet. Yeah, I think even another enhanced feature that you guys offer that I've learned about myself and, and to kind of build on privacy and security you know Jameson had a tweet you know the first rule of Bitcoin is always talk about Bitcoin. The second rule of Bitcoin is never talk about your bitcoins. So you think about you know you think like a thief, and who you know what your threat vector is. But one of the things you want to really build in there are the three things you want to build in there is like time sound and visibility. Whether it's your home and your physical Citadel or, or your Bitcoin and I think another feature you guys have. And I'd love for you to describe it is that sort of that fifth recovery key and and sort of the, the, the time and the sound and the visibility that that will buy you. If you're trying to access that key. So, so what we do for example let's let's take our, our platinum and diamond tiers for our premium clients. They've got five total keys, and it's a three of five multisig so you need access to three of them to spend. Let's say for some reason, one of our clients has lost two keys, or they have. They have access to all their keys and they need to make a transaction. We can actually use the casa recovery key as one state one of the three signatures that they need. But when you're doing this, using this casa recovery key we want to make sure that we're not signing for somebody who is not you. We're not approving this transaction for somebody who is not you or for you but you're under duress like somebody's forcing you to do this. We actually have multiple different types of checks that happen. The first one is that you actually have to request that key in the app so you need access to the app, you need your password, your face ID, all that. The second one is that we do a video verification call with you. So, after you request using that key, we'll get on a video call with you and make sure you're actually okay and it has to be over video because we want to see that you're not freaking out, you know, in some place where you aren't supposed to be. And we have different ways of checking this that our client service team sets up individually with our clients, and there's different preferences that we can customize for people, but we really want this check is to make sure that you're okay and you actually want to use this recovery signature. And then the final check is that we add a two day wait period. And so, once that video verification call happens, a 48 hour clock starts. And 48 hours later, we will sign that transaction for you. But during that time period, or we add that time period in because it would be a lot harder for a $5 wrench attack, you know in person attacker to hang out at your house for two days, keeping you under lock key while they're waiting for this signature. And so that helps a lot for just making it one more obstacle that an attacker would have to go through before they could actually have access to your Bitcoin. This is also configurable. If someone wants us to do a seven day wait period or whatever, then we're happy to do that. We can also take other information from you. Some clients choose to have duress words set up, you know that they could use while on that authentication call for example. Yeah, I wanted mine to be Ethereum as my safe word and they kind of refused, because it's not related to crypto at all but I was like I really won't ever say that. They wouldn't let me use that one. Can you guys tell me a little bit about like inheritance and kind of you know maybe thinking through okay, this aspect of I've made it really hard to get to my Bitcoin only I can. But what about maybe you know somebody else in my future, or somebody want to pass this on to, whether it's a lot or a little. Yeah. So that's where at our highest tier right now it's, it's our diamond tier we offer inheritance as a service. And basically the way this works is typically with a, you know, a setup of of holding your own Bitcoin keys like Jameson was saying earlier you have to write down all of these instructions for how your heirs will find your Bitcoin and it turns into this treasure hunt that is pretty anxiety inducing for all parties involved, basically, and your heirs may not even know how to use Bitcoin. So, so you're expecting them to follow these instructions and they don't even they've never even used Bitcoin for. It's a problem. So, at our diamond level what we offer is our client service team actually works with you and your heirs and your state lawyer to set up a process that if you were to pass away would be enacted to easily and through the existing legal system pass your Bitcoin on to your heirs. So it's really the, the only one of its kind as a self custody based inheritance process. And it's enabled by multisig. So, because multisig means you can have multiple keys accessible by different parties. We actually set this up as a three of six. So we add one more key so it's no longer a three of five, it's now a three of six, and you have three total or six total keys. So we set it up so that three of those keys are accessible through the legal system, if you were to pass away. So, for example, one key would be accessible maybe by your state lawyer who can actually use that key to sign because there was a proof of death that he knows that you, you died he or she. The second key would be held by CASA. And so that's the normal CASA recovery key. And we will sign with that as part of this estate transaction, if we've set up the inheritance process. Upon a court ordered proof of death. So, receiving proof from a court that yes this person did pass away, and we are going to use our key to help send Bitcoin to their heirs. And then the third key could be held in for example like a bank safety deposit box, and that bank deposit box is also accessible with court order after proof of death. So, that makes three keys accessible after death by your executor or your heirs, because those keys are not accessible if you're still alive. And so that's the big, the big benefit there is that, you know you with other types of setups, you either give your heirs full access and full instructions before you pass away, which some people may be worried about in a scenario where things turn adversarial with a spouse, or something like that they may be worried about whether that person can access Bitcoin. Well with with the setup. It's legally made so that these keys are not physically accessible until you have actually passed away. And that gives our clients, a lot of peace of mind because they're able to feel like they have a very robust setup that is does exactly what they want both while they are alive, and after they pass away. Yeah, awesome. And what do you do if you lose a key that you know one of the ones that aren't backed up. Yeah, so, instead of having to, you know, back it up with the seed phrase you basically instead of restoring that key you just buy a new one, and you just say, hey, and this is outside the inheritance scenario just to be clear it's kind of basic usage you just, let's say you lose one of your treasure hardware wallets that's part of your three or five. You, instead of trying to restore that same key, you just buy a new treasure actually with casa we will overnight one to you, if you lose a key. You can then market as lost in the app, and the app will actually walk you through every step of adding that new key into your key set, and then transferring funds from the old unhealthy key set where you've lost one of the keys to the new key set that has lost the five keys, all healthy and inactive again. And so this makes it really simple to think of keys, less as this single point where I have to do everything I can to protect this and more as pieces of a whole, where it's almost like the water Horcruxes, or something like that you know you're, you have more than one piece keeping you alive here. And it's very simple to swap them out and replace them with other keys if you need to got it. And what about if Costa goes out of business, or I just want to take full sovereignty over all five keys. What is their process for that. Yeah, this is actually something that you receive instructions for immediately upon finishing your setup. And basically what we do is we give you the data and step by step guide for how to recreate your multi seg setup in other wallet software. So, there's a few reasons you might want to do this, obviously the extreme edge case is casa as an entity ceases to exist with no warning, which is, you know, not something that we're planning on letting happen but it's if we're talking about your life savings, then we want to eliminate every single point of failure which includes casa as an entity. So, what you really just need to do is to know all of the public keys the derivation paths, and a few other steps for how to set up other wallet software to to look at your keys the same way. And what our instructions show you and what some people want to do immediately is to test them out of course, and to make sure that we are doing what we are saying we are doing. By setting up actually your casa wallet in other wallet software you are gaining an additional level of verification and independence, because if casa were to start doing something malicious and for example start showing you deposit addresses that don't actually belong to you, then we would not be able to control that and the other wallet software that you set up so it's it's also a good way for you to independently verify that casa is following the rules that we claim to be following. Yeah, it's wild. I mean, it really is so many parallels between thinking about you know protecting yourself physically and then protecting your, your digital sovereignty over digital cash or digital money, and the parallels there, you know, at the same time you know I think if people losing your sleep over security. It takes less than 10 minutes to set up a multi SIG at casa. And you know at this, another level you probably don't need to, you know, think about this extreme level of security. It's really just you know about the bare minimum to protect yourself against, you know random crimes of opportunity and be a harder target than the next person. My final question to you guys is you know what's going on at casa now and and going forward what do you see, just as a company growing. You know, whether that means with the bull market or just in general as more people come to Bitcoin. What is your point of view and what's going on with casa. Yeah, so, oh, there's a few things there I'll hit on all of them real quick so the first, or the first one that I'll hit on is the bull market so as people are seeing the value of their Bitcoin increase, they're starting to think. Man, I need to get my security under control, because suddenly, they're, they're Bitcoin is five x in value in the period of a couple of months. And that's okay it can be anxiety inducing but casa has helped a lot of these type of people move from Coinbase for the very first time to holding their own keys. And people here multisig and casa and they think oh that's that sounds complicated that sounds like it'll take me a long time to set up and I don't really understand it, which is totally understandable. But we've done a lot of work in our product and in the app itself, so that somebody could come in really not knowing what they're doing at all, and be able to set everything up properly. And, like I mentioned at the very beginning we also just have a team, a support team who is here to help people get set up properly and really answer any questions and even we even run, you know, even for our non premium members so like our people who have a gold plan which is $10 a month. We run onboarding webinars where our support team will actually run through a full setup of a gold multisig wallet so that people can see what it looks like, ask any questions they want, etc. And it really gives a lot of people a lot of peace of mind that they have us to to help them through this, so you're not alone in feeling like you need to secure your Bitcoin, we can help you. What's coming. So in the really short term, we have a couple of things we actually just increase the limits for being able to buy Bitcoin within the casa app so you can actually buy Bitcoin through casa, and have it be directly deposited to your secure self custody. So, instead of having to go through an exchange, and, you know, then maybe sending it off to your personal self custody. You can buy up to $25,000 a week of Bitcoin, if you're a US citizen. And you can use that to, you know, totally skip the exchange and cut out that middleman. And then soon we're going to be releasing one of our most requested features which is the ability to have sub accounts. So that's actually breaking your Bitcoin into different pools of Bitcoin different accounts, and keeping it totally separate. So, this lets you do things like have your kind of normal savings account stash of Bitcoin, and then also have some IRA Bitcoin, where you're actually holding your own keys it's a tax advantaged setup. So, the biggest thing when you have Bitcoin and not an IRA is to make sure that it does not mix with non IRA Bitcoin. And so, this retired the sub account feature will enable retirement accounts within casa in a lot better way than we have right now which is great. Yeah, I'm actually personally going through that transition of trying to think through, you know, legally set up everything to manage my own. I'm not going through my self managed IRA but you know then thinking through sort of the security around the actual sats, and what that means for generational inheritance hopefully if Bitcoin goes up a lot in value. Yeah, I think that's also interesting about what even we said about the bull market where, you know, maybe people haven't you know, maybe they have $500 now, and it's gone up to $2,500 or vice versa maybe it was 100 it's gone up to 500, but they're thinking, what is the value of this and how do I secure this in the future, and taking that more seriously. Casa has been a big part of my Bitcoin journey from, you know, trying to understand what Bitcoin is and the value proposition of Bitcoin to take control of my own keys. Also Jameson you know personally your podcast appearances have really made me think a lot about my personal threat vector. What is a real threat like how of a threat how much of a threat is the $5 wrench attack versus managing it against custodial organizations and external parties, and just my own mistakes. You know, and your threats yourself and then just thinking about your physical security. So I can't tell you how much I appreciate you both coming on the show. It's been really great. Thank you so much. I'll leave it to you guys for any parting words and where they can find you and Casa services. Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you for having us on. It's been great to talk to you and thank you for being a client of ours. So, you can find us our website is keys dot casa keys dot casa. We have a range of security levels for any level of Bitcoin that you're holding so you can start with our free mobile wallet in our app. That is a single signature wallet, where the key is actually encrypted and backed up to iCloud so you don't have to worry about managing that seed phrase. That's free. And then we have our gold tier is $120 per year. And there's a 30 day free trial for that and that gets into two or three multisig. And so that's your first taste of multisig. And then at our platinum and diamond levels we have a little bit more service a little bit more security and that's all available on our website as well. So, that our website is keys dot casa, our Twitter handle is at casa hodl. And you can always feel free to reach out to us for for any questions about about casa we're here to help you secure your Bitcoin and make it easy to do. Awesome. Yeah, I always recommend people get their fee web multisig just jump into the two or three it's $10 a month. Find out for yourself it's kind of like just buying Bitcoin. I tell people just buy $10 and see what it feels like to hold it, even if it's on your phone through a custodian and experience it so thank you so much guys I really appreciate it. I'm Jason Lopp and Nick Newman on the do's and don'ts of Bitcoin key management and the trade offs between convenience and security, right here on the Bitcoin Matrix podcast, and thank you for listening. If you dig the chats, subscribe, drop a five star review and share a link to the podcast with your friends and family. Keep learning and keep stacking. I'm Patrick. Peace.