Hey, what's up, so avalanche, let's talk about it. What's an avalanche the snow?
Comes down real fast fierce
Gains momentum, but I'm not talking about the natural of disaster or if it's not really disaster. I guess if no one's around but anyway
Avalanche, what is it? You've heard about it. Now you're gonna hear some more
It's an open source platform for launching decentralized finance applications, right? DeFi
that's
What you won't
Developers who build on avalanche can easily create powerful reliable secure applications and
Custom blockchain networks with complex rule sets or build an existing private or public subnet
Right. I think what you should do right now is stop what you're doing. Even if it's listening to this podcast
stop pull over
Go to the gas station if you need to go to a subway. There's a subway like everywhere. There's always a subway
All right. All right. There's always a Kroger. Just stop in a parking lot somewhere go to Avalon all the labs dot org
To learn more. All right, stop go to our lab. That's ava labs lab s dot org
Now entering
It's kind of a cast that work
It's a Bitcoin podcast. The only one that's making your money in you. So hold on, but now
Oh
Hey everyone, welcome back to
Wait, that's not how we start our shows. I don't do that
That's weak. Everybody does that. Hey, hey guys
No, that's not how we do it
sup y'all
Welcome to another episode of the Bitcoin podcast episode 326
I'm the host that talks first D. We're missing a host today. So
I'm Jesse
That's right. That's right. Cory is down for the count. He's got baby drama
All right
This kid is not
Cooperating with his life today kid said look at me
I am your captain now and now Cory has to do whatever his newborn wishes so he couldn't make it
I know
That's what babies do bro, they come in like a wrecking ball and that's it
You had things you wanted to do and now you're on the baby's agenda
And now you're on the baby's agenda
Right. So you want a baby?
um
I've had plenty of babies in the past, you know what i'm saying?
but um
No
No, uh, I mean eventually yeah
I'll probably like, you know, get a little demon seed out there get a little demon spawn walking around here on the earth
you know
Why not bro just add some flavor to this mix?
You know what I'm saying
So what about you? Oh wait, we've had this discussion on what the headers before
Yeah
You know like a hard no
So
And I don't blame you bro. There's plenty of humans walking around already. It's like, you know, we're at capacity and why do we need to?
Push the limits there
My week was uh long. It seems like so i've got this this counter counting down behind me and to my right. Yeah
it seems like uh
whenever I take a caffeine pill time just dilates and it just
Goes real slow, but then once that caffeine pill wears off man time goes by fast
And I see that clock counting down and i'm just like, oh my god. So stress. Do you
Need to invent that pill from that one movie where the guy takes the pill and then he can do everything really fast
Yeah, what's that what's that movie called?
It's got uh, it's got what's his name. It's bradley bradley bradley cooper. Yeah
And then it's called uh limitless
Limitless. Yeah, nct is the pill. You still remember the like i'm gonna. Yeah, nct
Yeah, I wish I had a pill I tried i'm pretty sure I tried making it's uh cocaine but that's like no kidding
Have you ever have you ever like not done a drug because you think you would like it
Yes, yeah like cocaine that's the one that's the one to me i'm just like you know what like
I don't know. It looks like it looks like a good time all around. It looks like
Just like you know, I might like it too much. I'm just not gonna do it ever but
Man, it just it does look like a lot of fun. It looks like more fun than eating cotton candy. I'll tell you that much
so
Anyways, yeah kids don't do drugs
What about you? How was your week? Ben? It was really good. Um
You know busy but busy good
Managed, you know, I like them. I like a well-managed week
You know what i'm saying things just kind of fall in line
Nothing catches you off guard if something happens
It's gonna fall in line. Nothing catches you off guard if something does catch you off guard
You know, you've got like
Things in place to not get caught off guard or to like when when you do get caught off guard you can handle it quickly
You know, it's a pretty pretty solid week, you know building
Doing my thing
You know just pretty anything fun
To do anything fun. Um, one of my exes got invited to a lingerie party and decided she wanted to send me
Her options that she was going to the party with so that was that was great
Those were some great pictures to receive if you know what i'm saying. I was like cool
This is like an interactive lingerie catalog. I feel like i'm 12 years old all over again
You know, so that that was pleasant, you know, why are you rolling your eyes jesse? This is real life, bro
We're adults. I mean like come on like like like I don't know like a hobby like oh you're talking about like
regular shit
Uh
I mean, this is my hobby this podcast and so, you know getting ready for today's show has been pretty cool
We're doing a lot of things behind the scenes that I hope
Reflect you the listener. Yeah, i'm talking to you the person listening to this scarfing down a crispy cream donut a crispy cream mini
Me right sipping on that black coffee because you know, you gotta have your unhealthy donut max with your healthy coffee
and then you gotta
Talking to you
Hopefully that hits you, you know
Um, but yeah, man, pretty pretty decent week. I got no complaints
Everybody's alive
You know because of covid and all so
Yeah, it's been pretty solid shit. So
um
Yeah, we're gonna hop
Hop into it. Uh, and if you are another one of my other exes listening to the show
I strongly behoove you to send me your
Laundry options as well. I'm really good at judging that now
so moving on to the show we had Jameson
We had Jameson Lopp on the show
And one of the things he just dropped that new high shit right before we started recording. He dropped a blog
I guess you still call them blogs
mental diarrhea on the internet about how there's systemic risk to all of crypto now that
so many custodial services are popping up and
by so many
It's actually so little
In comparison to the actual amount of users of crypto and it creates a systemic risk of the holders of these private keys, right?
You're not supposed to have private all the private keys in the hands of a small number of people
But that's what's happening again, because I don't know man humans like to force their shit on every new system
So they're like, you know, what fuck this private key shit. I don't need to manage my own shit. I'll just let coinbase do it
I'll just let jim and I do it
I'll just let poloniacs do it and what's happening is just uh
Reoccurring of the exact same situation we're in and we're like five years away from fractional reserve crypto wing
Crypto wing
When you said earlier that casa does like management of their own individual crypto token
I thought you meant like something along the lines of
that uh
what that kid did that 20 year old kid in california where he
I coed his own life basically
Well, no what they do is they'll send you a little casa hodl node and then they teach you how to manage your own private keys
Right. Oh like a physical physical node. Yeah, which is is is dope and all but you know
It's so detached from what could be considered convenient for the retail user of crypto, right?
Like nobody walks around
The closest relationship someone has with the money in their bank account is probably the app on their phone
Yeah, I don't think people would want a physical thing to be honest
Yeah, I think once you once you've created apps for smartphones
You will you kind of at the same time
Eliminated the desire for people to actually have like a physical piggy bank
Same thing with the you know banking banking nowadays, right? So like I don't think people are used to managing anything associated with the bank. So
How do you how do you I don't know sometimes things feel moot
Sometimes things feel great
And currently with crypto, it feels like it's just gonna be a recurring of the same exact series of events that led to the previous
financial incumbent system
Just with crypto sprinkled on the top
Are you are you uh
disenfranchised
No, because I own crypto and I got in early enough to be a part of the franchise
But the people five years from now, they're trying to get in the game. They're like, please
Black sauce. Can I have some more your crypto? I'm gonna be like, nope. You get satoshi's bitch
Fuel my wealth. No, I'm playing
That's what's gonna happen. This is gonna why so you're gonna change your name. You're gonna be like share
You're gonna switch to your your halo gamer tag the sauce. So yeah, black sauce. Fuck it. I might
Okay
How many people call me sauce
How many people call me sauce so
You know, I might do that I can call you sauce if you want me to no
Doesn't even feel right. Do I even feel right with you calling me sauce?
I don't know sauce
No
Doesn't it's not nobody's should ever call another note. I feel like no man should ever call another man sauce
Like I feel like that should just not happen
Yeah, be sure
You wanted that. I know I did I wanted in a video game setting
Okay, all right, so it's all coming together now, so let's get back to you
You're gonna shoot top people in the game when you have crypto five years. Yeah, I got it like
Sauce you got sauced
but anyways, uh
we're so
It's a bad thing, right? There's a certain level of crypto that you should be comfortable having someone else custodialize
There's another there's another level of crypto that you should always feel uncomfortable with people custodializing
Right and that all depends up on your personal preferences on on your risks
right
If you're somebody who's a baller like fucking diddy, you know, you probably don't want somebody
You know, you can probably handle somebody being the custodian of like 150 000 with the crypto. No thing like wow diddy
That's how I do it. But you know, maybe don't maybe don't I don't know your life listener
so
Um, and i'm pretty sure like there's a bunch of other cool stuff happening crypto this week
But really the air that's a the sorry the the news event that took the air out of the room
That sparked somewhat of a little jump in price across the globe for bitcoin
And not really for other cryptos was paypal as like yo
Yo, we're tired of this bullshit. All right, we're gonna we're about to get in this crypto game
You can buy you could sell you can hold if you're a business
You can take bitcoin and we're all gonna do that for you as paypal
What was the catch?
I mean the catch is they're going to be the custodian of a bunch of people's private keys
That's going to be the catch the catch is they're going to be the custodian of a bunch of small businesses private keys
Now the I thought you couldn't move the crypto off of paypal
What's the catch? I don't know that if you can verify that before we jump into the interview then
Then I would but I didn't know that that was the catch
Yeah, i'll look it up. So
Basically what we're looking at and then this excellent tweet went out from willy woo, uh woonomics
Uh, it's my one of my favorite crypto. Um analysts
Uh, if you will you can follow my willy woo on twitter at willy woo w i l l y w o o
Shout out maybe if you shout him out on behalf of me and he gets on the show i'll send you some bitcoin
Because i've been trying to get willy woo on the show for a long time
Uh, he's one of my favorite characters in crypto just because he's so thoughtful
but
What he said was, you know, even at maximum
Being very, um
I guess aggressive with the estimates that the total number of users of bitcoin on the planet
It's still like 20 to 25 percent of the total number of paypal users
so overnight
you're looking at
I don't know you go from 220 million users or whatever
Uh as a guess over up to 481 paypal members, right? That's huge. It's bananas
It's huge
right, so
Um, obviously very big news and it's not just bitcoin. It's bitcoin cash. I think they're doing ripple
Sorry xrp. I don't know why but whatever and then there's another
Um, and i'm pretty sure they'll do more because no smart financial business right now
I was just gonna sit on the sideline and let these other people make all this damn money off of crypto
And not try to find their way into the game. It just doesn't work like that, right?
so
What what jesse was able to follow jesse you just talked to what you found
All right, so I found the article, um, and basically the paypal
um
Blog post I think it said that you can only hold the cryptocurrency that you buy on paypal in your account
Additionally, the cryptocurrency in your account cannot be transferred to other accounts on or off paypal
That's what the help page said. So what the fuck that's useless then
No, it's not it's it's because they don't want you moving money like they don't want you to basically
use them as like a
Service that can launder money, I guess
I don't know. They just they they probably had some agreement that said, okay
um
We're just going to be
Custodians of the crypto, but we're not going to facilitate
transferring crypto from from the account that we manage for you to anywhere else because
We can't verify that other entity
in terms of like kyc
and so that's probably you know that complies with probably the um
The issuance that the what is it cybercrime thing the ag the u.s defeats the entire purpose of crypto though
I mean it it does but not for how paypal will make money from you based on that
Right, because there's you're gonna buy you're gonna buy bitcoin in paypal. You're gonna have bitcoin on paypal
And then you're gonna spend it through paypal
Paypal so paypal is gonna keep collecting fees from from bitcoin
Everything that you do with bitcoin on their platform fucking stupid
I mean
I don't I don't disagree
I agree
but that's the way it's gonna go because
nobody's gonna take flack for
People trying to launder money between bitcoin accounts because the the legality is too great
All right, that's dumb so
Paypal is being dumb
You know
At least it says ebay is gonna have to up its merch game
I've never bought anything from ebay ever in my entire life
I actually haven't either
That says a lot about you ebay. I hope you're listening site sucks
Always as I don't know why so many people use it
It doesn't get the jesse d stamp of approval and I don't know if you know something or not ebay. That's a hell of a stamp to have
All right
Now, you know be interesting when amazon because I don't know if paypal is going to be able to facilitate payments to amazon
But that'll be interesting. It'll be more interesting when amazon themselves
Amazon themselves offers crypto as an option and then they can convert, you know amazon gift cards into crypto and
It's gonna get pretty interesting if that happens not if because i'm pretty sure
Just just just volume of money, right paypal moves more money than paypal does
No, it's definitely not if it's definitely a win. Yeah, and yeah, I think the zeitgeist is getting so
Uh, it's getting so juicy for crypto right now. I don't know. I saw this little clip remember, huh?
I was gonna say remember that uh, like I think two years ago. We saw the the news that amazon has the eth domain. Yeah
Like they have the payment rails set up for ethereum already. They probably have it for bitcoin as well
But you know amazon stays ready
amazon stays ready like as soon as as soon as it's uh,
Uh minimal supremely minimal risk
High reward or even minimal profit like even a minimum minimal profit for them to facilitate crypto purchases
They're gonna turn that shit on overnight. It's gonna hit all the headlines gonna fucking rock the world and there we go
I know a lot of people are investing in it. I'm pretty sure kevin hart is investing in bitcoin, too
You see that little clip do you see that clip
That was very funny. It was like it was posted on r slash bitcoin on reddit and um
Apparently kevin hart and his friends were doing a fundraiser like one of those things you can call in
And you could tell it was a skit, right?
But you know, there's some truth to every joke and one of his friends is like hey kevin, you know
Um, somebody here is on the phone. They want to pay with bitcoin
And he's like bitcoin
No, we're not taking that voodoo money. We're not taking that voodoo shit. We're not taking any of that and then like out of the blue
Like he acts like he's hearing something on his on his earpiece and he's like wait a second. Yeah
250 billion dollar market cap
actually a sound investment
Okay, I guess we are taking bitcoin. We are taking cryptocurrency
Uh, and then you see like a little label come on the bottom left of the screen
It says we are accepting cryptocurrency for donations and I was like, holy shit, man
And kevin hart owns bitcoin. There's no way he doesn't you know, uh,
I don't know if you follow
Him like kevin hart but like when I was like deep into poker a few months ago
Like I was watching him play poker at some pretty big tables. He's actually
Pretty funny while he's playing. He's really funny
I've yeah for a long time. I hate I try to hate on kevin hart, but I actually started why really funny now
because the stand-up is so like
I don't like stand-up comedians that just laugh at their own jokes
That's something that's like he does it all the time
It's a pet peeve of mine. It's like be the comedian. We don't need your assistance with what to laugh at
Like if you're a good comedian, i'm gonna you're gonna make me laugh
You're not gonna I don't need you to laugh at your own jokes. I'm like, oh, yeah
I guess that is a funny situation comedian. Yeah, like no like say something funny like make me laugh
Anyways, say something make me like he says that he says that he hates that about people in the audience
He's like say something funny make me laugh. That's all
That's why we're here. We paid money to watch so you can make me laugh
Like we didn't show up just to watch you make yourself laugh. Like anyways, yeah
Let me get off of my kevin hart soapbox. He's actually tell me how you really
He's actually really hard he's actually extremely funny, but anyways, let's let's let's get back in so
We happen to be interviewing Jameson Lopp
uh, he is a very
very
very
um
I don't know like wise knowledgeable
talented bitcoin enthusiasts
Uh co-founder not not just an enthusiast that would be like underselling this man
He is the co-founder of casa
Hado which casa hado like their mission is to get everyone to be the custodian of their own
cryptocurrency
Which if you're new to cryptocurrency what that means is that you actually have
Ownership and nowhere and are storing your own private keys
And no one else is doing that for you, you know without further ado
And here it is
Hello everyone. Um, yeah real excited to bring you all this interview
Um, we have I know you guys hear this term thrown around a lot, but we have a certified bitcoin og in the house
um
Mr. Jameson Lopp Jameson, how you doing?
Good, it's always funny to hear myself
Uh coined as an og because you know, it's all relative
You know to me there are plenty of other people who I consider ogs
But I can see how you know having been in the space for the vast majority of its existence
Relative to most people. I guess I have been around for a while
Do you ever like?
Go ahead cory
When was he actually got in when did you start?
Well, I first
So i'll never remember the first time I heard about bitcoin because I know I dismissed it several times before I actually looked into it
but it was like summer
late summer early fall of 2012
When I actually got around to reading the white paper and actually grocked the whole significance of the system
and you know, it was within
A few months after that that I I started, you know sending wire transfers to mt gox
so I could actually play around with the system and understand it better and then within a year of that I was
forking bitcoin core and
Working on my statoshi project to even further understand like what was actually happening inside of a node and you know
That was just the beginning of my journey down the rabbit hole to eventually going full time in early 2015 with bitco
Big go wow. Yeah, and this
Yeah, do you ever not correct anyone?
Like like if you're introduced like hey, this is Jameson Lopp
He's an og and they're like, oh snaps like you must know dr
Dre and snoop dog and like all the other ogs and you're like, yeah, absolutely
I hang out with dre all the time or you're like, no, i'm a bitcoin og
It's a different thing
You know, I haven't had uh
Too many people make much of a deal out of my status
but
the uh, the og thing is kind of a weird moniker because
you know
I think
One of the issues with it is that everyone assumes that you're incredibly wealthy because you must have bought
You know tens of thousands of bitcoin when they were less than a dollar
And the the truth of the matter is that I would
It's hard to put a number on it
but you know, probably the majority of people who were in you know, when bitcoin was a dollar ten dollars, whatever
Or managed to either lose it or sell it because they thought it had already gone to the moon or you know
have any number of other
Catastrophes or just normal life things happen to them that resulted in them not
Holding on to much of the early bitcoin they had if they even got that much in the first place
I think especially on the developer side
A lot of developers did not approach it as an investment
They approach it as a software project and they were just interested mostly in that side of things. So
There's a lot of I think misconceptions of what comes along with the term of og
Simply because there are a variety of
Avenues that people can get into the space in the first place and not all of them involve
You know the financial investment side of things nice nice. I um
I
I just know that i've been following you on twitter for some time
And it's always just been a wealth of knowledge and information. So that I can personally say that
but um
I tend to point you I tend to point people over to your your uh, your website that has a bunch of listed resources for various
Things people may want to do or learn about. Um, yeah, so
Thanks for putting that together and curating it for such a long time because that's been
Inviable for me to just have some place to point to when i'm like, oh you need that?
Well, here's a good resource to go look where that like
trusted
Things to go learn
are
Yeah, and you know, that's one of many different projects that I work on but I would say that I probably touched that
knowledge
base
almost every day
Either because I get pull requests or because just during my normal daily operation of trying to
Stay on top of everything in this space. I find some new resource that I realized fits well
On one of those sections and and it is a community thing. You know, it's an open source project
Pull requests welcome and in general like if anyone has recommendations for you know
Better ways to organize it make it more user-friendly. Um, you know
There's a lot that could be done to it
Like it would be great for example to translate it into other languages
But the main problem with that is that a lot of pretty much all of the underlying resources are english-based
So, you know if the goal is to try to help onboard the rest of the world and improve their understanding of bitcoin
We've still got a long ways to go
Especially if you want to reach out to non-english-speaking communities
That's very true
I couldn't agree more. I think you know, it's it's been a while
But I still don't see our podcasts here on your audio podcast resources to have. I mean, I feel like there you go. See
There's something like
I want to say over a thousand links now spread out across
My resource site, but see it didn't take you long to find something that's missing. So there's definitely
I'm almost a thousand percent sure. That's my fault personally because you told me like oh you got to go to github and I was like
I'm not doing that and then I forgot to tell corey. So that's on us. That's not
We should probably get on there because we got all this audio that people need to hear so, um
So I want to talk about bitcoin's upgrades like because like I feel like when bitcoin gets an upgrade it takes such a monumental
human effort
like in patience
And just just it's just patience. Like everybody utters like hey bitcoin could get an upgrade and then maybe three or four years later
It's like oh, yeah, remember that thing it's happening
Maybe and I feel like we just turned the corner on taproot and it's like
I feel like we just turned the corner on taproot and snore
Cory and I just did a show our last show was kind of explaining what taproot and snore are
But you know, I'd like to give you an opportunity to kind of maybe explain that to our audience as well
And just so we can constantly keep that on people's mind as to what the code base now has in it
Yeah, you know
It's tricky to talk about some of the low level protocol changes
Because I think that they specifically should not be user facing and the average bitcoin user
Should not need to even know that they exist
this is what i've spent the past five years trying to do is to build better software so that we can
Then abstract away a lot of the complexities of the protocol because I believe that the
The freedom of the protocol of course gives you the ability to have this level of
self-sovereignty and self-contained
Ness its security level
That is really unparalleled
But the flip side of that is that there are so many foot guns where you can screw up and have a catastrophic mistake
so
the
you know even
Letting people like have access to some of these low level functions
is a
Very powerful thing but can also be a very dangerous thing
so
you know with regard to some of these new protocol functions the snore aggregate signatures the
Taproot and tapped script ability to have much more
more complex bitcoin scripts that is more scalable and more private
These things are great. I think
as developer tools
and they certainly should be
Implemented in a variety of different wallets and use cases. I mean i'm especially
excited about snore because
CASA is a multi-sig
bitcoin
self-custody
Vaulting service like we're trying to make it extremely easy for the average person to create
a self-custody setup that is arguably like better than bank grade security because it's actually
Geographically distributed and is built in such a way that it eliminates single points of failures
just by following the design of the system, so
You know being able to implement something like aggregated signatures under the hood is great for us because it's going to
improve people's privacy with their on-chain
activity by making
The multi-sig transactions appear to be single signature transactions to anyone who's observing the blockchain
it's also going to decrease the fees that they need to pay for transactions because you're going to be using less of the block space and
then the
The taproot and tap script stuff
it's
It's hard to even convey
The possibilities here because really it's not it's not fundamentally adding new logical
Functionality to what you can do with bitcoin scripts like the actual bitcoin scripting language is remaining the same
rather
It's making it so that you can create
extremely complicated bitcoin scripts that you don't have to put in every transaction where you're spending from them
So right now if you create an insanely complex bitcoin script
The problem is when you go to spend it you have to reveal that entire
Script and all of its possible conditions for unlocking that bitcoin in order to prove
That you are successfully
meeting those conditions
but
With tap script you can instead use something called merkleized abstract syntax trees
Which is basically using some cool
cryptographic merkle tree data structure
So that you only have to reveal the like minimal number of spending conditions
Now like this stuff, I think is pretty boring for the average user
Um, what it really means once again is that your
Wallet software developers can build much more complex
Functionality into the ways that you can spend your bitcoin
And shove that all under the hood in such a way that it doesn't have to bloat your day-to-day
Transactional spending so, you know, we want people to continue to be able to use bitcoin in a similar fashion to what they are now
At least from a user interface, but with something like tap script you can
You can create all of these. I guess you could call them
exit conditions or you know exits edge case
handling where
one way that I
Try to apply it like in terms of our casas multi-sig setup is
imagine you have a
three out of five multi-sig wallet and the keys are are geographically separated and
something happens and
The majority of those keys get destroyed somehow. Well
Normally if you're using just a three out of five multi-sig, then that's it game over
You've lost there is no way to retrieve enough
cryptographic private key data to recreate enough signatures that can then
spend the Bitcoin but
When you can have more complex scripting then you can start to create these other edge case conditions
involving things like time locking so you could create a
gracefully degrading
Multi-sig is the way I've referred to it where you can have other conditions that basically say
You know if this Bitcoin has not been spent, you know in X number of years then
Change the spending conditions so that you can potentially spend with a fewer number of keys for example
So that can give you a sort of out from certain catastrophic
catastrophic scenarios while still allowing you to retain the same level of security today and
You know, that's just one example
Because what we're really doing is opening up the ability for the programmers to create more complex scripts
It's really being left open to your
Imagination of what you can do within the limits of the current scripting language
So this is once again another great powerful tool
But I also expect that there are going to be a number of mishaps where your people
fall into the trap of creating too much complexity and that causes an issue that will you call
Those people to lose their money. So I'm a bit wary of it
I actually gave a whole talk about this in Boston at the beginning of the year or like right as the
Pandemic shutdowns were starting to happen and I was basically cautioning developers
not to be too overeager jumping into this type of stuff because there are some
Other, you know recovery issues that come along with creating more complex scripts
Especially when it comes to like how do you recreate a wallet from scratch for example?
But you know, this is getting into really low-level stuff
But it's very it's actually very similar to some of the issues that we've seen people have with lightning wallets
Where you no longer have all of the data that you need to reconstruct a wallet just in your seed phrase
There you get to the point where you need additional data that you keep updating and backing up as you're using the wallet
Because you're you're putting
To use the technical term you're putting non-deterministic data into your redeemed scripts
You know things like timestamps block heights, etc. Etc. Things that you can't
Determine from the seed phrase so it's it's gonna be interesting to see how
Developers approach this because you know, we don't want to
We don't want to backslide
from a
Historical standpoint, if you were around the Bitcoin space before
2013 or 2014
That that is when HD wallets, you know hierarchical deterministic wallets became a thing
before we had
That type of wallet where you could just have a seed phrase that you can
programmatically and
deterministically generate all of your keys from
The wallets were actually using just random
key pools
Where you would have a hundred randomly generated keys and as you used those keys your wallet would generate new keys
And this actually
became a loss vector because then you would have to be backing up your wallet, you know as you were using it and
A lot of the wallets did not
Inform the users that they needed to be doing that so there was a decent amount of bitcoin that was lost
Simply because you know, someone did not have a recent enough backup of their private keys
So basically I want to avoid us getting into that same type of situation where you lose your money because you have some
Catastrophe and your backup is too old
I gotta
Yeah, I could take us in a few different places
For one, like why are you are you purposely avoiding the term smart contracts? Because that's what they are
It's just that there's a stigma around what that term means even though I think we could both agree
It's a terrible term, but it's it's generally understandable
Across the ecosystem, but they may I guess refer to solidity when you start talking about those things
But in essence, these are smart contracts
Yeah
It's funny because I think
It feels like you know, aetherium has kind of
Grabbed the term smart contracts to to mean, you know much more
rich
You know almost like virtual machine type interpreting of contracts by everyone on the network and
bitcoin takes a very different approach to this where
instead of
Actually, you know running and interpreting the smart contract, you know in the node on the blockchain by, you know
Everyone at the consensus thing the bitcoin way of doing it is
Do as much of the logical
Interpretation off chain privately and then submit, you know
Some sort of compact proof to the network that you have met whatever those conditions are
To the network that you have met whatever those conditions are and the rest of the network should not care
What the conditions are the rest of the network should only care that you have met the conditions
That you and whatever other party have entered into
ahead of time, so
it's it's more of a
You know validate a minimal set of proof type of a smart contracting
than it is
You know, we're gonna
Run all of the logic on all of the nodes, but you you do essentially
End up with the same type of you know fundamental building blocks and logical constructions
It's just it's kind of like an inverse way of going about doing it
I think it is a more challenging way to go about architecting a system like this
But it's a much more long-term view in terms of privacy scalability, etc
it's also a level of like
Security, and I'd be weary of trying to use the same terminology
and also
bringing a lot of hype into the
Additional complexity you can have within these scripting systems or like, you know
I'm going to call them scriptless scripts or whatever
Andrew Poulster likes to use, you know what I mean? Like you're adding a lot of
potential
Uh feature sets into how people can manage their bitcoin and what conditions they can unlock them so you can build these like
Like you said really interesting features on the user side
By using this technology, but you run the risk of like whenever you add complexity
you run the risk of people shooting themselves in the foot like you've like you previously mentioned and
that education process of this is the
rect way to
design architect implement and
And that showed the user a specific feature
Shouldn't be done
Hazzardly, right? We kind of saw that with ethereum if they they had a massive on-ramp of developers by
Architecting solidity to look like javascript and now we have a bunch of very insecure smart contracts
Um on the network holding in order to mount amounts of money
So it's it's it's very hard to make good smart contracts, right? But it's very easy to make smart contracts. Yeah, so
Yeah, I think that you know, the fact that it is more challenging
It will turn more developers off from trying to build in this fashion
But I think the flip side of that is that the people who are dedicated enough to try to take this route
Are less likely to make novice mistakes. You know, there will certainly be mistakes made that is really the
Fundamental nature of what we're doing experimenting and
Doing groundbreaking new things, but you know when when you lower the bar too much
it uh, it makes it easy for people to
Really repeat the mistakes of the past
I mean a lot of the mistakes I think that have happened in ethereum are just variations on a theme and it's almost always a
result of just not putting in enough qa and testing and and you know adversarial thinking about the ways that these things are being built
It's just an argument around like it's an attempt to be as inclusive as possible
But at the same time like the more people you include into something the lower you
The more you lower that barrier of entry and make it inclusive to everyone
The easier it is for people who are naive or ignorant to to mishandle a powerful technology
Yeah, pretty much and you know, we we very well may get to the point where
We have enough layers that are built on top of this new low level functionality where
You know, there's no reason why you can't build
more
Developer-friendly
Uh more developer-friendly like developer environments and auditing tools and all this other stuff
I mean that that type of stuff has been happening on ethereum to you know
Try to make it easier to to verify the security of what you're writing
the same type of thing can certainly happen in bitcoin you to make I guess the composability of more complex but
Uh verifiable smart contracts a thing and I'm I i'm pretty sure even blockstream has several different people
For example that are working on that type of stuff
So, you know, it's still probably going to be a number of years before we get anywhere to the same
level of
ease for a novice to jump in and start
Like doing a drag and drop type
composing
oof a smart con track on on bitcoin, but there's no technical reason
uh
Sounds like we lost you for a second there. Love what I do know is that when we do make it to drag and drop
Uh, let me know because I read a lot of pictures. I read a lot of picture books as a kid
You know, it ain't a real book if it doesn't have pictures in it. I'm that's why you know, so I need to be there
Whenever that happens. I'm in there. I'll help out. I'll get I'll get my hands dirty
That's why I'm your friends day. Yeah
So give me the newsletter and it's like hey
The programming on bitcoin is drag-and-drop. I'm in there
I'll be the first one
so um
Let's switch it up based on that like hold on. I got more. I don't know. I wanted to switch it too late. Nope
I'm going I'm going in hard, uh
Based on what you mentioned earlier about kind of
The user shouldn't have to see this and what you're trying to do at casa is
Is it abstract away all that complexity on what you can do at the developer level to something that
Makes an intuitive feature
For the end user that they can use and do some things more securely than they ever could
With more like I guess personal responsibility or things like that
How do you
How do you
How do you think about the process of?
developing new feature sets using these new tools and
How you surface that to the end user in such a way where it's going to be like
Approachable to them
Well, it's really for us about providing a
You know curated and guided experience. So one of the biggest issues that I have with most
bitcoin wallets
And I consider this, you know
When I say bitcoin wallet, I mean a like self-custody wallet where you're managing your own keys
All the other stuff are just thin interfaces to some back-end system. That's actually doing the heavy lifting
but one of my biggest problems is that they
They
are
Are too like power user focused by which I mean they had elves and whistles too many levers
And this causes a poor ux for the average person who probably doesn't even understand what the majority of these options really mean
you know what the ramifications of them are and
that becomes compounded when you add this to the fact that
You know if you're just running free open source software
There's probably not a like dedicated help desk for you to go to to to ask these questions
It's really more of a community support thing. So the the quality of
Support that you can get when you're you're not paying for a service is highly variable. There's there's no guarantee
for
What what you're going to get as a response if you're just like posting on a forum or whatever
So this I think is one of the reasons why a lot of users probably prefer the
custodial services is because
You know, there's not really much to do when it comes to their interface. You know, here's your balance
Here's a transaction you can do you can withdraw you can deposit. That's about it
When you start looking at some of the more complex like self-custody software that's exposing more of these things, you know
Whether it's replaced by fee child pays for parent
Let's not even get into the whole like mixing
Software, you know the various mixer based wallets. It gets a lot more complicated with them
and
And then like I think that you know
If you're even exposing like the type of of scripts like a lot of wallets that have been around for a while
They're like, do you want to use legacy or do you want to use?
P2sh wrapped segwit or do you want to use native segwit?
I'm like like these are things that the user should not have to know about you know, it
They should just be presented with
what the
real community consensus is for like the optimal, you know set of
of conditions for them to just be using as a regular wallet and so
that of course
Can get tricky because you know, different users need different things
So it's like do you build one wallet that can do absolutely everything and then expect for the users to choose which?
knobs and bells and whistles they're going to use
Or you know what we've done at casa is we're saying okay
We're going to build a wallet that does one thing really well, which is you know incredibly robust
incredibly robust
self-custody
And you know, we're going to focus on that one target and optimizing the user experience for that one thing
And what does that really mean? Well, it means that we
We consciously do not add
most of the bells and whistles and features of the bitcoin protocol
Because we think that the complexity it would add the confusion it would add would be a a net
detraction from our very specific
targeted user experience
and
This you know does cause pushback where we have
Sometimes more advanced users come in and they're like, hey man
How do I rbf this or you know, how do I you know mix my funds or whatever whatever?
And we basically have to say look that there are other tools out there if you want to do that
But it is you know, it's just not what we consider to be in the best interest of the majority of our users
And the use case that we're targeting
so
It's also different because you know, we are a for-profit company
We have like I said this very specific mission
Other projects maybe for-profit they may be free open source software
Um, if it's you know, just a you know, we want to do everything
with the bitcoin protocol while
It's you know, something like electrum. I love electrum everything
but it's not something that I would send the
newbie to
um
I think we have ended up with a diverse ecosystem, you know different pieces of software that that excel at
At doing different specific things or in some cases at being, you know
The general kitchen sink of the the bitcoin protocol type of interfaces
so the
I think the next real question is you know, how do we
convey to newbies
What is the best tool for each task?
And I think that's where it can also get tricky
You know, there are a number of different websites that have sort of matrices
Or filters to try to figure out, you know, what wallet is right for you?
But I I think that that's still a task that has not been
Really done that well and it can still be very confusing for people to decide
You know, what is the best bitcoin software for my use case?
Yeah, that is very hard. We have that issue
Ourselves in terms of on ramping different parts of different people
I could educate as much as we can and people come to us for guidance on kind of like hey
where do I go for this or i'm trying to do this thing what technology or
um
Software project can help me do this what wallet helps me do this and so on and so forth and it's hard to
Keep up with best practices or the current best software to do something for any given resource that I
I don't really have an answer for that
I mean unfortunately most of the time we just say go to coinbase if you're trying to get started and that's not
pushing people in the right direction in terms of
Helping the ecosystem, but i'm not sure of where else to go over time
And it's almost impossible to keep up with what's going on. So like what do you do other than say buy a casanova?
Yeah, I mean that's actually one reason why we've been adding bitcoin purchasing functionality
Into our wallet is so that we can bypass that simple step where you know
If you're talking to a uh, what do you want to call them a pre-coiner or a new coiner or whatever?
And you know, all they want to do is they want to get their first satoshis and start playing around with it
then
I think the vast majority of people will say, you know, just go to
It an exchange that operates in your jurisdiction and you know, hook up your bank account and get going and of course
Then I suspect most people
Or at least if they're looking at bitcoin just as a simple investment, they're going to treat that exchange the same way
They treat their like 401k their brokerage account, whatever they're going to buy it
and then they're just going to leave it there because they're going to assume that
The exchange has the offers really like the same level of protections that their bank or their brokerage does
You know if they don't start digging really deeply into the the self-sovereignty aspect
of the self-sovereignty aspects of this system
so that's why you know we have added some on ramps to the casa wallet so that
You know if somebody just wants to get started very easily
They can actually make that purchase and the purchase immediately gets deposited into their own self-custody
And if they want to start out with just like a free single signature wallet on their phone
That's an easy way to do that. And then you know, perhaps over time if they get more into it
They decide to invest more whatever then we provide
really a
Series of different tiers that people can upgrade to you know, start adding hardware devices
Start, you know moving your funds into geographically distributed multi-sig trying to make it as easy for people
to follow what I consider to be
the sort of the natural progression of
Increasing your security to to meet the the level of value that you're trying to protect
How's it going so far?
what casa is
You know what what's the most common good feedback you guys get and then what's the most common?
You know, maybe not so good area for opportunity kind of feedback that you get
I mean we have a number of different customer profiles. Of course, you know very early on it was really
hardcore
og bitcoiner types who either
were
not highly technical
Or they were technical but simply did not want to spend the time
You know setting up and architecting and maintaining their own system
I mean this was really born out of my own needs where I had been working at bitco for three years
and you know learned a lot about private key security learned a lot about multi-sig and
Realized that I was still spending basically a weekend every year
Refreshing updating maintaining redistributing my own cold storage setup
So I I kind of realized, you know, this is a real pain for me to do
I'm sure that the vast majority of people are not going to go to anywhere near the links that I have
You're trying to follow all of the best practices that I had learned while working in the space
there was just
There's so much room for improvement there that you know, I didn't want to spend that much time myself
I wanted to help people be able to achieve that same level of security without
spending years in the space like I had so
this is
something where it's been a learning experience
but
We we learned a lot just from the first, you know few og bitcoiners who came on and then really
over the past year, you know as the the
Bull market seems to be warming up
We've started seeing new types of customers come in
either
people who
Have only been around since around the last bubble and now, you know, they're back in the black
They're doing well. They're the value of their holdings are rising. They're feeling the need for better security
or
What I think is one of the more interesting profiles is
Just the new coiner like high net worth individual who has decided that you know, given the macro environment
They need to diversify some of their holdings into this new thing
but
They don't want to spend days weeks months figuring out how to do it, right? And so
for for like
The average high net worth individual who is not a like hardcore or long-time bitcoiner
It makes a lot of sense
to
to jump in you place your position and then you know pay a relatively small amount for a
Specialized service that is essentially
Onboarding you into the system holding your hand
As you follow the best practices for you know navigating this very
Tricky environment that you know has a lot of foot guns in it. So, you know, we
You know, we offer the same value proposition to everyone which is
making it easy to have a
Setup that is robust and resilient and
Makes it a lot harder to have a catastrophic error
Like we build redundancy into the system so that you can recover
from really any conceivable threat or loss, but
It's you know, it's different for different people
mainly based on
If they're if the majority of their worth is from bitcoin and you know
This is everything to them or if they are, you know wealthy outside of bitcoin, and this is just a
Sort of hedge for them. So, you know, that's
Part of the reason why having a client services component
Is very important for us and I think differentiates us a lot from pretty much every other
self-custody setup
The majority of which like i've said are just
Free open source software, which means you know, you've got a lot of
A lot of powerful functionality
If you put in the time and effort to figure out how to use it, right?
But also, you know plenty of things where you can make mistakes
If you haven't done your research if you if you haven't thought through
All of the possible things that could go wrong. This is kind of
I think for a lot of people
a way to jump start that process even really take a shortcut past a lot of the
The learning and and hard lessons that a lot of us had to learn in the early days where we were still
Exploring all of the things that could go wrong in this space
You know, we're trying to package it all up in a single product and service
That will essentially save people a lot of time
Nice
you know, I never
Dug into the casa device because we didn't get ours
Cory because we didn't follow those
But had we didn't follow the rules to get our podcast on the list or get the casa
So, you know, we just didn't get a chance to play with any of it but quality follow-up for the bitcoin podcast team
Yes, absolutely. You guys know what we do. So then we
But you know, I think it's been relatively great for you guys since and i'm still of
i'm still on the team that like crypto needs it's like cable modem not modem but like modem moment where
You know every household has a modem in it, but I think most households probably just think of it as the magic internet box
And that's just what they roll with and that's just what it does and
Like maybe there's somebody in the household who knows how to you know, get into the gateway on a web browser
But most people in the house only know how to unplug it for 10 seconds and plug it back in and then the internet's back
Right, and I think that crypto is the only way to do that
And I think that crypto needs something physical like that for people to understand like
There's some magic happening
But that's just my like, I don't know opinion I guess
I guess what I'd like to ask is like, you know, not too long ago. It was like three or four months ago
You got a little twitter buzz going around you and I didn't read too much into it
But it's just to me. It looked like you did a job and you got paid for the job
But then there were some people who were really butthurt about it. They were like, oh lop this
Sell out that
Did this didn't do that. I don't know what happened exactly. But can you clear like what what was that about? Like let's let's
Let's talk about it. Yeah, it's complicated. I mean, I I wrote a fairly lengthy blog post about
You know my involvement in the INX exchange and a number of the
I mean there wasn't just one there was a number of different objections that various people had to it
This is actually a project. I've been involved in since early 2018
and it's
unique in the sense that
they were
trying to
Trying to follow what would be considered to be like the best
practices from a legal and regulatory standpoint of how do you
IPO a startup with cryptographic tokens and so
the the idea was
That they build a new exchange and help bootstrap that exchange via an an IPO
and this is specifically not
an ico in the the terms that we would think of from like the 2017 bubble because it is actually a
you know
As as far as all of the lawyers are concerned, you know fully regulatory compliant
initial public offering of the
the company's token which has all of these very
Specific and well-defined terms of you know, what the token allows you to do what rights it conveys to you
and
I think really the complexity of this thing
I don't even know how many pages the actual like IPO documents are
Probably close to a hundred pages
The complexity of it meant that you know
the vast majority of people are not going to go read the terms and like
Get the nuance and the minutia of what it was actually doing
um, there was also push back to the fact that the the token is uh, erc
20 compatible token. It's technically not an erc 20. It's um
Uh, it was like erc
1400 something I think but like
You know people got really upset about it being on aetherium. Um, you know, this kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier is
The aetherium protocol and made it really easy to do that type of smart contract
especially
Given the fact that this whole process got jump started
late 2017 early 2018
So, you know people jumped to conclusions. They made assumptions because I was a technical advisor on the project
They assumed that like I advised the project to use aetherium for this token
That decision was actually made before I even came on board
And it was not something that I or any of the other advisors had the ability to change because it was a regulatory decision
where the the sec was basically more comfortable with understanding these aetherium smart contracts because there were
So many of them, uh, mainly because of you know, the 2017 ico craze
so
You know, there was probably half a dozen other objections as well that i'm forgetting
It's been several months since i've even talked about this, uh, but they're all they're all outlined in my
My blog post. I think I called it on, um shit coins and sto's because this is um
This is an sto. It's a you know security token. It is a you know from a legal standpoint
It is a security it it has you know, aml kyc compliance requirements
the
The way that I kind of describe it is like the fact that the token is on the aetherium blockchain
Is actually fairly irrelevant because if you read the terms of the ipo
the
Like the official keeper of the records of who owns the tokens is actually not the aetherium blockchain
Um, it's actually I believe it's token soft who is you know managing that whole process
So like there's there's a lot of things that you could get upset about on a lot of things that people did get upset about
And and I think that one of the big ones which I I tried to explain in my blog post
is that
there's this
idea and this narrative around
quote-unquote bitcoin maximalism and it's been
Fascinating to watch this
Evolve over the years. I mean the term bitcoin maximalism was really coined by vitalik buterin
I don't know maybe 2015 or so it was you know
Right around the beginnings of aetherium and at the time
This was really I think due to a pushback
Against the aetherium ice
Ico which you know jump started the bootstrap
Of paying for the initial design and rollout of aetherium as a network
and
I think part of the problem of what has happened over the years, especially
After the 2017 cycle with it was just rampant with scams. I'm pretty sure like
90 percent of the ico's ended up being you know fraudulent and
Never delivering on any of their promises. But you know maximalism, I think really solidified
and
so
You know there have been some projects that
Bitcoiners even bitcoin maximalists have been more friendly to and I think the reason for that is that they're not considered to be really competing with bitcoin
And one of the things that I tried to outline
In my post is that I don't see any way that anyone could consider
a
You know regulatory compliant aml kyc
Security token to be competing with bitcoin. It's not trying to be money
It is it is ultimately a cryptographic token that just represents something that that is ultimately
A single bitcoin token
represents something that that is ultimately a single point of failure because the company itself gets to decide who owns
What like they are that the master?
controller of their own ledger and
Yeah, I think that people just got upset because they considered this to be
Really like legitimizing aetherium as a platform or whatever and that you know, aetherium does have
I think a decent number of people who have started pushing a narrative that aetherium is money
And you know aetherium has gone through a couple different narratives of what it actually is over the years
I think as it tries to figure out what it actually is and that's going to be an ongoing thing
so
So my whole point was like I don't think that
you need to be worried about this competing with bitcoin and so
I basically came to the conclusion that
While i've generally considered myself to be a bitcoin maximalist. This is not the first time that i've gotten pushback on
being interested or
Associated with other crypto projects. I mean i've gotten flack for
For mentioning grin even though I had been talking about nimble wimble technology for a number of years before grin ever launched
Um, and that was really because I think once grin launched it was considered by some to be a competitor
Even though the like economic properties of grin are horrendous if you're looking at it as a store of value
Yeah, and i've also you know, i've been i've played around with like zcash before it ever even launched
Um, i'm sure if I mention anything about zcash these days people would jump on me again because they consider a competitor
I've also you know been interested in monero. Generally i'm interested in your privacy related things
But you know, I found this project to be interesting because it was
Trying to bridge a gap it was trying to do
You could consider it to be it was trying to do
An ico the way that ico's should have been done
It was trying to do it in a way where
It was
Outlining all of the actual risks. It was outlining
uh what the actual rights of the token holders were and um
You know, this is an ongoing thing. We'll we'll see, you know, inx the exchange
The exchange is currently, you know hoping to launch sometime mid next year the
the actual
Infrastructure and software and stuff is already in place. I think it's really mostly
It's still regulatory stuff, you know getting licenses and everything that is the blocker for for actually launching
but
uh, the experiment continues and uh, some people will be upset and some people will
consider it to be uh an experiment worth uh
Investing in or or worth using you know as an exchange
I uh
I myself was not
Conveying like any sort of recommendation on investing in it
But you know if people want to read the terms and they want to invest in it, then they're certainly free to do so
I mean we all have our area specialty, especially when we have certain types of uh
Security considerations in mind and do and and necessary diligence on projects. We feel are doing a good job
um
It's hard to find that line between
um sticking to what you know and being comfortable with
And being open to a potential innovation for people trying to do things even though they may or may not
Be capable of doing it
And so like it's it's it's it's generally good to be open to projects trying to do good things
That doesn't mean that like you're diving wholeheartedly into them
And unfortunately whenever you are open to something or try and play with something or figure it out and see what novel thing they're trying to do
um, some people take it
Personally, especially if you're if you've been
On one side for so long. So I it's yeah, I don't think it's one of the it's one of the situations
You're probably always going to have to handle because you seem generally open to
Novel technology trying to solve problems
Uh, so good luck, I guess
Yeah, I mean this is not um, well controversy is not a new thing for me. I would say
this type of
Uh feedback, you know whiplash whatever
Backlash from the like social media community
Happens to me at least a few times a year. It's always something different but the
The theme that I think remains the same is that it's always a result of people
Having formed a mental model of who I am and then me doing something that breaks that mental model and considers
It to be a betrayal of some sort
And that is, you know, fundamentally I expect that will continue to happen
I will happily try to continue to explain myself and explain my beliefs and whatever
Um, but there's it's just there's no possible way, especially once you get to have
An audience the the size that I have there's just no way that you can appease everyone and i've never been interested in appeasing anyone
Actually, I've always just spoken my mind and done what I considered to be interesting things or the right thing
Um, this is going to result in controversy at some point. Um, I mean, I I would expect that probably
I probably offend somebody almost every day from something that I do or say
Um, but I I can't
Good job. I think that's good. I think that's good. Yeah, I can't you know, I don't I don't try to go out of my way
To offend people. I mean sometimes I will I certainly do things that I try to do
I do things that I try to trigger people
Usually I try to trigger people into thinking more critically rather than just being like yeah. Yeah, you're dumb
but
Yeah, that's that's part of the you know, the
fun
Experience of being on social media is that you know you get
you get
a lot of
Diverse opinions thrown at you
a lot of curveballs
But that's what keeps things interesting, you know, if it was the same thing
every day in and out then I would probably get bored with it and um, i'm
I guess in a way I like found my voice over the years
but
If anything like the way that I found my voice was just to to focus more on a nice man
I mean a few broad topics of like privacy self-sovereignty
um, you know
Screw the screw the man do your own thing to fight back against the power
But you know, that's uh, that's definitely gonna ruffle some feathers
Look you're gonna
People will find reasons to be upset about all kinds of shit. So don't worry about it. Just keep doing your thing
Because obviously it's definitely in that positive to everything. So
you know
Keep doing your thing. So
We're gonna wrap it
With our trademark question. We we asked this all the time. You've answered it before but congratulations you get to answer it again
uh
And 10 words or less
Can you describe bitcoin?
This is yeah, it's always fun to do this because I i've never settled on one specific thing
You know, it keeps changing all the time. Um
Bitcoin is the first oh god 10 words
Bitcoin is an open collaborative project
to
Create perfect money eight words. I mean it's 10 words if you do bitcoin is
but
nice job
Well, Mr. Lopp, thank you for coming by again
um, especially at such a you know good timing when you know, the the taproot and schnorrs in the in the code base and
No matter how many times
Uh, you explain it. Um, I have a feeling you're gonna be explaining what it is
Like hundreds if not thousands of more times because you're an epicenter of knowledge
So, you know, good luck with that. Um groundhog day journey that you're on
And also good luck with everything at casa casa. It's been great. Um
I think that you guys are kind of going in the right direction is trying to provide, you know some sort of physical
Cool thing that people have to interact with and think about when it comes to crypto. So hey, man. Thanks for coming by
My pleasure
Hey guys, we really hope that you enjoyed that interview
um
You know, we got a lot of moving parts going on the back end
Not they're they move just not fast and there's many of them. So
So
Daniel in the slack has
He's accepted our offer
To manage our shopify and help us grow our patreon. So thank you very much. Daniel
It's been awesome
The the first couple weeks trying to bounce it off ideas ideas off of each other and in what direction we're taking this thing
We never really been able to get it off the ground. It's been a lot of failure to launches
Uh, it's been two actually but two is a lot if you're in the content creation
Uh avenue
So if you could check out our our shopify store at store dot the bitcoin podcast dot com
And you'll see some merch there. We've got a lot of things. We've got everything from underwear to hats to hacky sacks to bean bag covers
to
Mints, I think we got it all right. We can get we can get you anything you need
All right, we can get you guys
Uh loofus
We can get you loofus
Uh socks
Um
dog leashes
Really you name it we can brand it. Yeah, because we got
We got mad menu. We got mad menu. We got a supply chain jesse. We got a supply chain for merch
All right, please join our slack. Uh, go to the bitcoin podcast dot com and push slack and then join it
And you can hang out with us. It's it's a good hang
um
There's some actual value to join in our slack too. We happen to have some very awesome individuals in the slack
and
Some of these individuals have even gotten jobs in crypto just for being involved and joining discussions and conversations and learning and growing
And then boom they get themselves a nice hot job in crypto and you know
We're always welcome to be like hey, they'll be like hey man, like recommend me and then me and core are like
No fucking doubt we got you and we get them jobs and that's been cool
And another thing is is there's a lot of people in there with some really
Sound experience that have been in crypto for a really long time
So it's a community you might want to be a part of if you're not a member of any other crypto communities
Uh, there's a lot of them. I know it but ours is better. So join ours
Also, you could go you could support us on patreon. Uh, the tiers are there they're outlined
Um, and we're gonna start to grow on that
I know one of the things we're really working hard to get is at least one show a month where you can participate in the show
By being a patreon and by being a member of the slack at the same time you will get access to our shows
Um, and maybe you can even talk to some of the guests that we have on
So we are working that up. It's gonna be pretty fucking awesome
Daniel, thank you again
Uh, jesse you got anything?
Yeah, thanks to everybody behind the uh show alicia for helping manage the guests and and uh producing and then uh,
Andy for also helping us market
Nice so
Uh, shout out to zoe saldaña
Shout out to zotzi beats
Um, yeah play
The outro