The definition of easy for an early Bitcoin or cypherpunk is much different than the
definition of easy for somebody who's just getting started with Bitcoin.
Hello there from Bedford in the UK, the Bitcoin Mecca of the world.
How are you all?
Welcome to the What Bitcoin Did podcast, which is brought to you by Kraken, the best place
to buy, sell and trade Bitcoin.
I'm your host, Peter McCormack.
And today I've got an interview with CASA CEO Nick Newman and CTO and WBD regular Jameson
Lopp to discuss securing your Bitcoin.
But before that, I do have a message from my show sponsors.
And for full transparency, CASA are a sponsor as well.
So you should know that.
Anyway, first up, I welcome back Least Authority as a sponsor of the podcast.
Now this is definitely for you techies out there, the people out there who are building
and creating applications.
Now Least Authority is a security consulting company who are pushing the limits on how
to build privacy respecting solutions.
They specialize in security audits, design specification reviews, security by design
and so much more.
And they can help you improve the security of your wallet application, key management
solution, layer two protocol, P2P network design, use of cryptography and so much more.
If you want to boost your security strategy, well, you can arrange a no obligation call
to find out how Least Authority can help you on your next project.
Just head over their website and hit the schedule or call button, which is at least authority.com,
which is L E A S T A U T H O R I T Y dot com.
Now let's talk about my other sponsor sportsbet.io, who are the best place for online gaming.
And now the Premier League is back as well as other European leagues.
It was great.
What a great first weekend, Liverpool won, Tottenham lost.
Could you want anything more?
Perhaps a little wage on the game, perhaps you put a little bit of Bitcoin on that result
for Liverpool to win and Tottenham to lose made a little bit more Bitcoin.
Now a great thing that's happening with sportsbet this season is they are the main club sponsor
for Southampton.
They have put a Bitcoin logo on the front of the shirt.
So if you're there watching Premier League football and you see Southampton, you can
see that the Bitcoin logo is out there.
What an amazing company.
They love Bitcoin.
They do so much for Bitcoin and they are the best place online gaming.
If you want to find out more, head over to sportsbet.io, which is S P O R T S B E T dot
I O.
Also, the subject of today's show, CASA, the best in Bitcoin security.
Now with CASA, it could not be easier to protect your Bitcoin from hackers, personal mistakes,
in-person attacks, device failure and so much more.
And me being the type of person I am, I'm definitely vulnerable to those type of mistakes.
I'm glad to be a customer.
I am a CASA platinum customer, but whatever type of Bitcoin you are, they have a product
for you.
With CASA gold, you get triple the security of a hardware wallet for only $10 a month.
With CASA platinum, you get their three or five multi SIG, the best protection for large
Bitcoin holders.
And that comes at a great price.
And with CASA diamond, you get their full service offering.
This includes a customized personal security review, inheritance planning and of course
their best in class security.
There is no better time to upgrade your Bitcoin security and get total peace of mind.
And you can find out more about this at keys.casa, which is K-E-Y-S dot C-A-S-A. Okay, now on
to the show.
And I'm joined by Nick Newman and James a lot.
They are the CEO and CTO of CASA and you will have heard James on the show a bunch of times
talking about security.
So this is what I've been looking forward to doing for a while, you know, properly securing
your Bitcoin.
It's not always that easy for someone like me was always an eagle in the back of my mind
that I might fuck something up and end up losing my Bitcoin.
And look, firstly, for transparency, look, unless you skip the ads, you would have heard
that CASA are a sponsor.
So you will have heard them in the intro.
And I just should probably say that I'm also a paying customer of theirs.
So about last 12 months, I was like a little bit concerned about my single wallet solution
with my backup key hidden away somewhere securely.
Look, I knew there was a potential for mistakes and I knew there was like potential of hacks
and you know, in person kind of attacks.
And I was really worried about this.
So I reached out to James and I said, look, it's about time I look at CASA and then Nick
got in touch.
He said, well, Pete, we've been thinking about a sponsorship.
Let us give you a solution.
You can try it out and then that'll be helpful for the sponsorship.
And I was like, no, I'm going to pay for this.
Look, and the reason I pay for it is because I'm pretty much a customer of all my sponsors.
Kraken I use as an exchange, BlockFi, I'm a customer, SportsBet, I'm a customer.
I'm a customer with all these people.
So I wanted to know if it's worth the value, if it's worth the cost.
So I paid.
And yeah, look, it is.
I definitely will be renewing next year, but look, you need to hear that because otherwise
this show might sound like a bit of an advertorial.
But yeah, since setting up my CASA multisig, I've had so much peace of mind that my security
is protected mainly from my own stupid mistakes, but like all these other scenarios.
So I hope you enjoy the show.
If you've got any questions about it, you know, you can reach out to me.
My email address is hello at whatbitcoindid.com.
I do pretty much reply to anyone outside of that reviews, I'm kind of chasing down reviews
at the moment.
Head over to iTunes, leave me a review that's super helpful.
Outside of that, go and check out my other show Defiance.
I've got this four part about the ghost inside this metal band.
Honestly, the reviews have been amazing.
Everyone who's listened to it has loved it.
Definitely go and check that out.
Outside of that, have a great week and I'll see you all soon.
All right, here we go.
Welcome to the show, Nick.
You haven't been on before.
How are you doing?
Yeah, good.
Thanks for having me on, Peter.
Not a problem.
Good to see you again, Lop.
It's been a while, mate.
We used to do this quite regularly.
Last time I did this with you, I was in Lubbock, Texas.
I've lost count of how many times we've recorded something at this point.
You've done a few.
The first one was like nearly three years ago now, so yeah, anyway, welcome to the show.
We have a ball run situation looking like we might be in one, so it is a perfect time
to dive back in, talk about security again, remind everyone.
We'll cover a bunch of stuff we've covered before, Jameson, but I think it's time to
get back into that, talk a bit about security and also, Nick, I think it's time for people
to get to know you a bit.
I mean, you're now the CEO of CAS, so how long has that been?
Yeah, it's been since about, really since December of last year.
We announced it at the end of January this year.
And how's that been going for you?
Great.
I mean, we've been, you know, the team is doing really well, the company is doing really
well, and so especially, you know, as we focus down on just security and making sure that
we really were focused as a team and as a company on providing the best security for
Bitcoiners, that's really paid off in terms of people understanding what CASA does.
Yeah.
I mean, I think some people were a bit disappointed on, you know, the node going, but I kind of
understand why you did it, why you made the choice.
But anyway, welcome, Nick.
You know, we've been getting to know each other probably since then, actually, I think
we spoke about December, so it's been good to get to know you.
Yeah, let's get into the security stuff because, you know, I'm now a CASA customer, we're going
to talk about that.
We'll get into that.
But let's cover some more of the security 101 stuff, and I know, Jameson, we've done
this before, but there are new listeners since we've done this before, and the show's probably
doubled in size, and some people don't take this as seriously as possible.
So this is a good starting point, Jameson, is that privacy and security are linked.
The two things you have to consider at the same time.
So do you want to break down for people why privacy and security, you have to think of
them as one holistic exercise?
Well, really, the question comes down to the attacker, you know, what are you trying to
secure yourself against?
And in order to try to minimize the attackers and the range of different types of attacks
that you have to worry about, a strong privacy model can help you there because you can essentially
hide from certain types of attackers, you know, if they're unable to easily find you,
then that provides some security, you know, through obscurity.
But the real issue, I think, with privacy is how complicated it is, and, you know, it's
its own rabbit hole.
So at CASA, you know, we focus on security and usability and privacy, I would say is
like a secondary thing that is like a nice to have because it bolsters your security.
But we have found that in general, it's easier to get people into a really strong security
model.
And then after that, we can try to, you know, make it even better by adding various privacy
enhancing techniques on top of it.
It's just privacy stuff tends to be a lot more work, you have to keep it in the front
of your mind.
Whereas with security, there's more stuff where you can just set it and forget it in
many cases.
Yes, funny.
Now I'm, I've never been particularly good on my privacy, but the kind of job I have,
you have to be out there and talking to people and I've just not been very good with it.
And now I'm, this can sound like an advertorial for CASA, but now I have CASA, I actually,
I give less of a fuck because I'm less worried.
So we could, we should talk about the product actually and why that is.
Normally when we do these shows, James and we normally go through all the privacy and
security stuff outside of your Bitcoin first, but I think I want to start with Bitcoin
this time.
I want to, I want to dive in and then talk about things, other things people should do.
So would you say Bitcoiners are particularly at risk or have a specific type of risk they
need to be prepared for?
Well there are a lot of the standard risks that anybody needs to worry about when it
just comes to data or using the internet.
The internet in general is a huge privacy and security nightmare, but the, the real
problem with Bitcoin and digital bearer assets is that they are very tantalizing target for
remote attackers.
So essentially it changes the risk reward ratio where traditionally if someone wanted
to steal a lot of money from someone or an entity, you know, they would have to physically
go and coerce them, you know, rob a bank, rob a person, rob a business, whatever.
And there's a lot of risk to doing that.
There's a potentially high reward, but you're essentially putting your own life in danger.
Whereas now when you can reach out and remotely hack someone and steal a small amount of information
from them, these private keys, you can then transfer, you know, potentially huge sums
of money in a matter of seconds.
And the physical risk to the attacker is a lot lower.
So this is something that, you know, as the world is changing, attackers are also changing
their own perspectives, they're testing out the different risk rewards and these new scenarios.
And that's why for Bitcoiners, this is a very dynamic environment, the, the new types of
attacks that we're seeing, they're constantly changing where, you know, education is a big
part of this space and basically keeping our clients, keeping people in the ecosystem in
general up to date with like what the latest most sophisticated attacks are that they need
to worry about.
I know you have that GitHub, are you still maintaining that GitHub page?
I'm technically maintaining it though, on the bright side, there have not been many
physical attacks, at least in 2020 that have happened and you know, perhaps part of that
is due to the lack of that out.
Well, no, because one of the other things I was going to ask is I'm wondering, you know,
does anyone track the number of kind of like Bitcoin hacks, stolen Bitcoin and are we seeing
this trending down as people become more aware of security and people have better practices?
Do you know if that goes on?
There are a number of different articles and projects that have like timelines of Bitcoin
and other crypto hacks in general.
And it seems like in terms of Bitcoin as a unit of account, you know, value being stolen,
I think that's going down, but in terms of Fiat value and total number of attacks against
various exchanges and other entities, that seems to be continuing to creep up.
And especially as we enter what looks like is going to be a bull run, the obvious implications
of that is that it's going to get more attention from people who have never tried to pull off
attacks in the crypto space before.
So we should expect that we're going to see essentially new types of black hats, you know,
security researcher folks who are going to come in and they're going to experiment with
new types of deception, new types of technical attacks.
And as a result, it's only to be expected that we're going to see more and more amounts
of value get stolen during the bull run and then inevitably there will then be a sort
of correction where the ecosystem absorbs the knowledge of, you know, all of the things
that happened and sort of shores up its defenses.
But you know, this is a constant cat and mouse game.
It's always going to keep ebbing and flowing.
And you know, as the amount of value on the line continues to increase, that is going
to continue to result in more novel types of attacks, especially attacks that cost more
to pull off start to happen because once again, the reward will become even higher.
So it will make sense to do costlier attacks.
So you know, some examples of that were just a recent one.
It looked like there was a 51% attack against OKX exchange with Ethereum Classic.
And from what I was reading, they just did a report.
It looked like the attackers actually deposited like over a million dollars worth of Zcash
into the OKX exchange before using it to essentially launder and do a 51% attack of Ethereum Classic
against the exchange.
So they ended up getting their Zcash and their Ethereum Classic back and I think got over
five million dollars, which is pretty good ROI.
Yeah, pretty good.
And you know, one thing to add on to that is that what makes the headlines is the big
exchange hacks like last year, the Binance hack where there was a bunch of Bitcoin lost.
But what actually is probably especially as we get into a bull run and more new people
come into the space, what's going to happen more is that people get phished and their
Coinbase account is stolen and emptied.
And so there's actually more of a risk to individuals generally from things like phishing,
SIM swapping, and just individual targeted attacks where an attacker can get access to
their exchange account and just suck the money off the exchange and it's gone forever.
Right.
Okay.
Nick, what were you doing before car sell?
Yeah, so before CASA, I was really working in finance.
So I did finance, which was investment banking and private equity kind of on the investing
side.
Then I went into the startup world and was actually working at a travel tech company
called Grab.
That was when I fell down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, started getting involved with Bitcoin
and private key management and security and so that's how I got involved with CASA.
How big was the learning curve when you joined CASA in terms of considerations for security
and multisig?
How big a learning curve was it for you?
So I joined before we even had our product out, right?
And so before CASA had already been working on some private key security and usability
projects.
And so I was relatively familiar with private keys and so I kind of was able to hit the
ground running when I joined CASA with Jameson and Jeremy.
And that was really, that was beneficial for me because before becoming CEO, I was head
of product.
So I was leading the launch of what was then Keymaster, now the CASA app.
So yeah, there wasn't a huge learning curve for me, but it's a complex topic and that's
why CASA was created and is successful is because private keys are hard and we're just
trying to make it easier.
Yeah.
That's a really interesting point on the easy side of things.
I've got two experiences of multisig, there's yours and Unchained Capital's and no disrespect
to Unchained.
I love those guys.
I love what they do.
Big fan of Parker Lewis, but that was a very kind of manual process to set one up.
I don't know if you know, I've got a bet on the election with American HODL.
So we set that up in that and it's very cool, but I could not have done that on my own.
And then I've obviously got experience to set up the CASA and the CASA one is obviously
very much designed for people like me who don't have to think about private keys.
It's all just kind of done for me.
And it was one of those things, it's so funny, it's one of those things, there's always those
things you always put off in life.
You're like, I'll do it another day, just because it seems so much.
And now it's done, it was quite a relatively simple process to go through.
The harder process wasn't actually setting it up.
The harder process was like, where am I going to hide these?
Where am I going to distribute these keys?
That was the real challenge and thinking through that.
Yeah, and that's why we have the client service side of our business, is we realize that people
aren't thinking about security every day for their job like we are at CASA.
And so by offering our client services, we can really help people benefit from our knowledge,
but not have to do all of the work themselves.
So they've got somebody that they can talk to and ask like, hey, where do you think I
should put these keys?
Can you help me think through that?
And so the way we've built CASA really from the ground up is to make sure that we think
from every angle about the security and then can build those best practices into our offering
for our customers so they don't have to think about it.
And it's just, we try to be as helpful as possible with their own security setup so
that they can feel secure, but not put in the hours and hours of work that it used to
take.
Well, security is a very personal thing.
There are a ton of decisions to be made, and each of those decisions has tradeoffs with
the risks.
And it's usually a trade off of risk versus convenience that you have to decide what you're
comfortable with personally.
Now on the technical side, we get a fair amount of pushback from especially more technical
folks or people who have been in the space a long time of, oh, multi-SIG, I mean, that's
just a standard part of the protocol.
Anybody can set up multi-SIG.
And they're correct in the sense that we're not reinventing the wheel, we're not doing
anything novel at a protocol level.
Really what we're doing and what you probably noticed with your own experience, comparing
and contrasting different interfaces, is that CASA actually doesn't give you as many options.
It's not a super advanced, you know, you have a hundred different things that you can tweak
in the interface.
And we believe that that's because one of our tenets is that simplicity and usability
is actually a big part of security, because I would say one of the big things that I learned
during my time working at BitGo and seeing a couple of different incidents happen there
is that, you know, BitGo was a more advanced like enterprise-based solution.
There were a ton of different things you could configure with the setup.
And inevitably, the various BitGo customers who did get hacked and lost money, it was
always because of a decision that they made and how they configured things, how they were
managing stuff on their end.
It was never an issue of BitGo and BitGo's infrastructure getting compromised.
So that's what kind of led me to the conclusion that, you know, we need to build the guide
rails into the user experience to essentially eliminate a lot of those foot guns.
Well, I know what I'm paying for.
I bought UX and customer service off you.
That's what I'm buying in my head.
And actually, we should clear something up as well, Nick.
You offered me the product for free, right?
Yeah.
I did because, you know, we were talking about the sponsorship stuff and I figured it'd be
good to get you to test it out and you were like, hell no.
I want to pay for this thing.
Well, do you know what?
I'll tell you what I did.
I don't know if I told you at the time.
The reason I did it is because it's an annual price, right?
So I knew I wanted to know if I valued it next year and I wouldn't know if I valued
it next year.
Maybe I can just twist your arm next year and have it for free.
But I wanted to know if I valued it.
So I wanted to pay for it and I also wanted to know which one I wanted to pay for because
the diamond was just like a bit too expensive for me.
But I wanted to pay for it.
But I know what I'm paying for is I'm paying for the interface, the UX, of what it does,
which is brutally simple and by the way, looks good, which is rare for Bitcoin.
But also is I'm also paying for the customer service, like helping me kind of like get
it set up, make sure I just make some correct decisions.
And I've been waxing lyrical about CASA since because now I've done it.
Now I've gone through that process.
I've distributed the keys.
I've set it up.
I have that total peace of mind now that I've got that kind of like, oh, that wasn't hard.
That was actually quite easy.
But I mean, that's it, James and Joran.
It isn't easy, right, what you've done to do.
There's a lot of complexity.
Under the hood, there's a lot going on that is very complex.
And so that's why it's, you know, it's taken a lot of work to actually make this a very
easy solution for people to use.
And so it's something that I think is it's not easy to for other people to copy.
That's where the value comes in there.
Like we've had some really OG advanced Bitcoin adopters come to us who had actually replicated
a decent amount of the same setup that we offer.
But they just weren't comfortable with the amount of maintenance that was required to
stay on top of everything and, you know, can continue to make sure that what they had set
up was still up to date and working and, you know, just little things like building cryptographic
health checks easily into the app to make sure that your keys are still working.
I think it's things like that that become valuable and are fairly difficult to replicate
on your own unless you're a software developer.
Well, yeah, but I just want easy buttons.
I just like don't press that button.
And that's it.
That's like, it's really, it's a bit like when I tried to use some Samurai, is it somewhere
I want it that has a coin join?
Yeah.
It had too many options.
It was like, you know, you had anonymity sets, I was like, I don't know what that means.
And just all these options.
I just wanted like a one button that said, like, coin join.
Make me anonymous.
Yeah.
Make me anonymous.
Wander my money.
Yeah.
No.
Jamus, come on.
Yeah.
So that's the, but that's where we're really trying to sit as a product, right?
We think that people aren't going to, you know, holding your own private keys is super
important for the success of Bitcoin generally, but the average person isn't going to do that
unless you make it easy for them to do.
And the definition of easy for an early Bitcoin or Cypherpunk is much different than the definition
of easy for somebody who's just getting started with Bitcoin.
And so we think this is a really critical spot that we're sitting in as a company to
help bring more people into Bitcoin and give them the best practices from day one.
All right.
Well, listen, look, I want as many people to sign up as possible, not just because you're
a sponsor, but I just think it's prudent and it's sensible right now.
So let's, but let's go back a step.
Not everyone will fully understand what we're talking about.
Let's keep it basic.
Cause you know, I like to do this for my audience, Jameson, can you just explain to people what
multi-sig actually means?
Because I'll be honest, I kind of had an idea in my head, but I didn't know fully what it
meant before I, you know, before I actually set up with you guys.
Explain to people what multi-signature is.
I will not explain it to you at a technical level, but instead we'll give you a nice analogy
of anyone who is familiar with say a safety deposit box at a bank.
You know that they give you a key to that safety deposit box, but it's not just you
go into the bank, you insert the key and turn it.
There's actually two different key holes in that safety deposit box.
And one of those keys is held by an employee, you know, at the bank.
So this is essentially a multi-signature operation that's required.
You have to have, you know, two different authorized key holders that sign off on opening
that safety deposit box.
It's really the same thing, but at a cryptographic level in the Bitcoin protocol where we're
saying that when we, we put Bitcoin into a certain address, into a certain cryptographically
redeemable script that locks it up, that in order to unlock that money and spend it,
you need more than one key to sign off on it.
And with CASA, we have a couple of different technical setups, but our flagship offering
is a three out of five multi-sig, which means there's five different keys.
They get distributed around a diverse set of locations and are stored on a diverse set
of hardware and software.
And if you want to spend from that vault, you actually have to get three of those different
devices and plug them in and add the cryptographic signatures before you have a Bitcoin transaction
that will be accepted as valid by the network.
Okay.
So that's still technical in some ways.
Like because this was the thing I didn't know before I used it.
I was like, okay, I understand it's a multi-sig, but like, how do I actually, if I actually
want to move Bitcoin, what do I, like I know now, so I'm going to let you explain it.
And what do I physically, what is the process I go through with a multi-sig?
Because I think a lot of people listening will certainly have, as a minimum, they would
have had Bitcoin on an exchange and hopefully moved it off, moved into a hardware wallet.
So they'll be used to that process of doing that.
And they'll also be used to that process of maybe moving it from a hardware wallet back
to an exchange.
So they'll be used to that process of creating a transaction.
But most of the time when you do that, you're just pressing buttons on a ledger or a trestle
or a presa.
You don't actually realize yourself, you're signing something in your head.
But when we talk about multi-sig, we say you've got to sign three.
So in layman's terms, tell people the process they go through.
So it's basically like, think of signing as approving.
So when you send from your ledger, you're saying, I approve this money to be sent to
Coinbase or wherever you're sending it.
And so to do that, you're plugging your ledger into your computer, pressing a few buttons,
and then the transaction goes off to the Bitcoin network.
With CASA, what you're doing is instead of doing it all on the ledger, you've got a mobile
app and the mobile app lets you type in, I'm sending $5,000 worth of Bitcoin to Coinbase.
And then you are saying start.
And so after you hit start is when you start approving it from your hardware wallets.
So first, you'll approve it from your phone, which happens automatically after face ID.
And then you'll approve it from a second hardware wallet.
Maybe it's a Trezor, maybe it's a ledger.
And all that requires is plugging your Trezor into your computer and hitting a few buttons.
It's just as easy as if you're using, I actually think it's easier than if you're using their
interfaces, the Trezor ledger interfaces.
And then you're doing that a third time with a third device.
And then after that, the transaction goes because it's been approved by three devices.
So the key here though is like, what this does is that it means that from one hand,
if you have your ledger stolen, for example, and somebody knows the pin, they could just
use that to steal your money.
Well with this, if one of your keys gets stolen, they can't do anything with it.
They need other keys in order to actually steal any funds from you.
But more importantly, and what people really discount is the risk of loss.
So since you've got five total keys, but you only need three of them to send funds, you
have a room for error, you have margin for error.
So we're all humans and we're all going to make mistakes.
And previously private keys have all been about make sure you protect this one key with
your life or else you're screwed.
Well CASA is built so that it's okay if you lose one of your keys, you've got the other
keys to back you up.
And so that gives people a lot more peace of mind and a lot more room for error because
you're going to make a mistake, but it's okay.
So that's really the, that's how things work and that's why it's built the way it is.
Well, we should probably say also like, so people know if you lose one, you can swap
it out.
Yeah, you just swap it out for a, you swap it out for a new one, but you've got the other
keys remaining to actually, you know, help recover those funds.
Let me tell you what really fucked with my head for, for to begin with.
So when I first set it up, there was a moment where I had to just take a little walk and
work it out in my head.
Like I knew what he was saying was correct was the fact that I strictly speaking, you
don't need to back up your private keys.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's the, that's the other piece that's kind of magical here, right?
Is because they screwed with my head, right?
Can I tell you why?
Because I always, I've told Jameson about this.
I have this little Jameson that sits on my shoulder sometimes and says, Pete, don't fucking
do that.
Don't do that.
You're going to fuck up.
And one thing that's been on the back of my mind is like, for a long time, my Bitcoin was
on a single hardware wallet and the key was backed up, right?
And I don't mind talking about it now because it's, I don't use it anymore.
It was backed up on a piece of paper hidden in the house, right?
Okay.
And very secure against an evil maid attack.
Well, no, no.
So, so, so, and then, yeah, but they would never have found this.
And then, so I was at that point, I was thinking, right, I need to like, like write it down
in two places, distribute it.
But then like, I was thinking about the house burning down and I just kept thinking where
I need to put that private key.
But I went through the setup for Casa and the guy who's helped me set up, he said, yeah,
you don't need to write down the private keys.
I was like, what?
What would you mean?
Like, what if I lose the, this is, this goes against everything I've been taught.
Yeah.
But it's, it goes against everything you've been taught as a Bitcoiner.
But think about it from the flip side of people who are not Bitcoiners.
It goes against everything they are used to, to have to write down this random 24 word
phrase on a piece of paper.
Don't put it on your computer.
Can't be on a connected internet connected device, put it on a piece of paper and hide
it somewhere safe.
Well, who knows what somewhere safe means.
So we're trying to build this in a way that you don't have to worry about those seed phrases
because this makes it much more accessible to the average person as they're coming into
Bitcoin.
I have a lengthy blog post about our thoughts around what we call seedless setups, but suffice
to say that there are some backups of some keys.
We automatically encrypt and backup your mobile key in a way that you don't have to worry
about that getting hacked off of, you know, cloud storage.
We also, of course, have backups of the CASA recovery key.
And so then there are some, you know, individuals who think through the extreme scenario of,
okay, well, what if all three of my hardware devices got destroyed simultaneously?
What would I do then?
Well, in that case, if that's something that you're worried about, we would recommend,
you know, you could back up one of your hardware device seed phrases on some metal or something
and throw it in maybe a safety deposit box that is extremely physically secure, because
then, you know, even if that one seed phrase got compromised by an attacker, they wouldn't
be able to do anything.
You've got to really, you've got to really try hard to fuck this up.
Yeah.
And that's the goal, right?
Put in the rails to make it really hard to mess up.
Yeah.
I mean, I wouldn't, I don't think I would want to go back down to the two or three because
of this, because with the two or three, there's a, you know, it's better than having one wallet,
right?
One hardware wallet.
But like, there's just a bit more room for error, just a tiny bit more room for error.
So personally, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back to that.
Let me ask you something, Jameson.
So the one thing I worry about since this, I was like, okay, what if CASA screw up?
What if they get, there's like a, like a bug that goes into the app and could a bug go
into the app that means like I end up locking away all my Bitcoin.
Is that a possibility?
Yeah, you know, this is one thing that scares me a lot when I think about Bitcoin and single
SIG wallets, because every time that you're spending Bitcoin, every time you create a
transaction, you're at a technical level, you're not just moving values on the blockchain.
You're actually destroying your money and then recreating it.
You're consuming it with inputs and then you're creating new outputs and, you know, essentially
unlocking scripts and then creating new locking scripts.
And so there's a lot of things that can go wrong there.
You could potentially screw up the fee and like send all of your money to the miners
if you miscalculate the inputs and output values, you could screw up the locking scripts
and unintentionally lock yourself out of your own money.
There's a lot of room for error and one of the reasons why multi SIG is great that not
many people understand, especially multi SIG using different hardware devices is that if
something like that happened in the CASA software, you would have to manually approve it multiple
times on non CASA software and non CASA hardware.
So the, you know, once again, the diversity of the setup helps protect against even CASA
screwing up.
So really one of the fundamental things that we keep in mind when we're making architectural
and design decisions is eliminating single points of failure.
And that includes CASA as a company.
We don't want a single human mistake on our end to be able to cause catastrophic issues.
We don't want even the company as a single entity, if say it ceased to exist for some
reason to cause catastrophic issues for our customers.
Yeah.
And one thing that we've built, we've had this for two years now since we built the
product is because it comes with the way that everything was created, how multi SIG is part
of the Bitcoin protocol is that you can actually recreate your entire CASA multi SIG using
other software like Electrum.
And so you can, you're not going to do that.
I'm going to vote up Jameson and say Jameson call that.
The point though is that like, you can fully verify that everything is working properly
in the CASA software with a completely different set of software.
And so that helps people get a better comfort around the fact that there isn't an issue
with the CASA software itself.
And usually we'll have clients that'll do that.
And after they set that up, they'll be like, wow, I now fully understand everything that
you guys are doing under the hood and blown away by the amount of complexity that you've
taken out of the product.
But that is important because it means that if CASA were to ever go away, suddenly drop
off the face of the earth with no warning, you could actually fully recover all of your
funds using a completely different set of software.
Yeah.
I'd be worried about that with me, but luckily I know Jameson, I can phone him up.
Okay.
So one other thing.
So I've removed all my personal single points of failure, because that's the thing I always
worried about.
It's just me being a moron and screwing this up.
The one thing I haven't solved yet, and I can't afford your diamond product yet, but
I've never solved the inheritance point.
But I've solved my single point of failure myself.
So I don't actually know how your inheritance product works.
Can you explain that?
Just so...
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the way that our inheritance product works is we build our inheritance to work within
the existing estate transfer legal system.
So you actually, this takes a ton of hands-on work from the CASA client services team, which
is why it's only available for diamond level.
Right.
So you essentially change your multi-sig to have six total keys.
And one of those is held by your estate lawyer.
And so that means that after you pass away, at least three of the six keys are accessible
through the legal process.
So that's, after you pass away, you need a court order that says, yes, this person passed
away.
Here's the death certificate.
And then the estate lawyer can approve a transaction with their key, CASA can approve a transaction
with our key.
And then your third key, which is held in a safety deposit box, can be accessed with
that court order.
So it does require a more specific setup.
And so this is all built into the existing, to work with the existing legal system.
One of the things that we're thinking about is, like you said, inheritance is still a
problem for people who are at our gold or platinum levels, but it takes so much time
from the CASA client services team and the setup is so robust that it really has to be
at the diamond level for our current inheritance offering.
But we're working on something that'll be available for platinum and gold that'll help
them.
Maybe it won't be quite as strong a solution as a diamond, but we really can still help
them have some way to pass on assets to their heirs after they pass away.
I definitely need something.
I've not solved that and I need to think about it because otherwise I think they're going
to be...
I mean, I could leave one with a relative and they can just hold the phone over my dead
face to approve it on my phone.
All right, cool.
Brilliant.
This sounds like such an advertorial, but I don't care because I think people really
need it.
I really think people should be looking at this.
Next up, I talked to Nick and James and more about securing your Bitcoin.
But before that, I have a message from my amazing sponsors, who I love very much.
So firstly, the mighty, mighty Kraken, the only place I go for buying and selling Bitcoin,
my favourite place for buying and selling Bitcoin.
Because you know what?
Being as this show is about security, it's important to use an exchange which has their
security shit together and they are consistently rated the best and most secure cryptocurrency
exchange.
And also they have world-class customer support.
If you've got any issue, it doesn't matter who you are, where you are, you reach out
to Kraken, they're going to get back to you.
And if you want to start trading Bitcoin, they have the best suite of tools out there.
Whatever your level experience, if you head over to Kraken.com, it could not be easier
for you to sign up to start trading Bitcoin.
They also have this beautiful mobile first app so you can buy Bitcoin on the go.
And with their margin trading, futures and OTC desk, Kraken really does have every option
covered for you.
There is no better place to trade Bitcoin.
You can find out more at Kraken.com or you can download the app.
It's available for the iPhone and Android.
Just search for Kraken Pro, which is K-R-A-K-E-N-P-R-O.
Also we have BlockFi, the future of Bitcoin and financial services.
What a great year they're having, absolutely smashing it on numbers and they also raised
another round.
So with BlockFi, you can open up an interest account and start earning interest on your
Bitcoin and you can use your Bitcoin as collateral to take out a USD loan.
You can also fund your BlockFi account directly from your Bitcoin wallet.
And with the BlockFi mobile app, you can now fully manage your account on the go.
They have got so much other cool shit come this year.
I cannot wait to tell you about it.
If you're interested in checking BlockFi out, I recommend you do your own research, then
head over to BlockFi.com, which is B-L-O-C-K-F-I.com.
What else are you working on?
You got any other new cool products coming?
Oh, you know, you just released something.
We did.
Yeah.
So we just released our Buy Bitcoin feature.
So this lets you...
It doesn't work in the UK yet, right?
Yeah.
Blame the UK, not CASA.
Nothing works in the UK.
Every cool thing out there, you try the UK, it doesn't work.
Yeah.
So what Buy Bitcoin is, is it lets you buy Bitcoin through the CASA app and have it deposited
directly to your cold storage.
So right now, people are having to, you know, if they want to buy Bitcoin, they're going
to Cash App or Swann or Coinbase or one of the many other exchanges.
And they're buying Bitcoin and it's sitting in a custodial wallet until they withdraw
that to one of their, to more secure storage.
But the problem with that is that a lot of people are worried about moving Bitcoin.
They don't feel like they know how and they might lose it, or they just are kind of lazy,
honestly, and they don't ever move their Bitcoin off the exchange.
So we've built this so that it's secure by default.
It's automatically going to your secure storage so that you can really have an easy experience
for buying Bitcoin, but still maintain that level of security that our customers love.
Well, that makes sense.
So I bought some Bitcoin the other day because when MicroStrategy did their thing, I was like,
right, I'm going to have more Bitcoin.
So I moved some of the cash, the business cash into Bitcoin, it went 50% only, but yes,
I went on the exchange and I bought it and then I transferred it into my CASA wallet.
So it would just make more sense to be able to do that directly.
Yeah.
Why not cut that step out?
You know, why do we have to go through the exchange?
The exchange is great for people that want to be active traders, but it's not really
a good solution for somebody who's just stacking sats to hold for a really long time.
And so that's where we come in.
I mean, it depends on your fees, right?
I'd have to check those out first.
Yeah, so the fees, it really depends on what solution you're using, right?
The fees for a Apple Pay debit card transaction are going to be a little bit higher because
you're actually paying the card processing fees.
The other thing that's interesting is in that it's just a little bit different than what
people are used to is that since this is a real on-chain transaction going to your wallet,
you do have to pay the mining fee as well.
And so that's something that I think people aren't quite used to, but at least for me
and the rest of the CASA team, that fee is worth paying to avoid going through a centralized
exchange and taking those extra steps.
Have you partnered with someone for this?
Yeah, we partnered with Wire.
So it's...
Ah, Michael Dunworth.
Yeah, exactly.
I know Michael.
Have you hung out with him?
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's a character.
He's a good guy.
He's great.
Yeah.
I like Michael a lot.
All right.
Can I tell you my wish list?
Yes.
I know you know.
I don't know if Jameson knows this.
So Jameson, tell me how hard this is.
I really want to be able to have at minimum two, but like multiple wallets within my CASA.
I tell you why, because I have business Bitcoin and personal Bitcoin.
Yeah.
You're not alone.
This is our most commonly requested feature.
I want it myself because I have several pools of Bitcoin.
Like I have some that's in a retirement account that has to be completely separate.
And yeah, this is totally doable.
We have a few really low-level architectural changes we want to make to stuff like derivation
paths to standardize on that before we...
What's a derivation path?
Yeah.
So like I said, really low-level architectural changes that we've got queued up over the
coming months before we can roll that out.
But yeah, that is definitely high up on a lot of people's wish lists, including mine.
How big of a challenge is that?
You know, technically we could do it right now and probably have it out in a few weeks,
but that would make doing some other low-level migrations trickier, which is why we're putting
it behind a few other technical changes first.
So it's something that we kind of have on our technical debt cleanup list to do first.
Right.
Okay.
Actually, I think that's the only thing... Nick, I spoke to you about this before.
Was that the only thing I had on my wish list?
I think that was the only thing on your wish list.
The rest of it, you said, this is the most amazing thing I've ever used in my life, right?
No, I did though.
I do like it.
Now, I want to be able to name the wallets as well.
Obviously, if I have multiple wallets, I want to be able to name them.
But that's really it.
I mean, it does what it...
Like I say, I know this is going to sound like an advertorial because I'm wax and lyrical
about it, but it does it so simply.
But you must have other things you're working on.
What else?
You must have some things you want to do, James, and you've probably got a massive list.
Yeah.
I mean, I've been creating tasks for two years now.
So this is the thing that when people come to us occasionally say, when are you going
to add support for my favorite cryptocurrency, then my common retort is as soon as we're
done with all of the Bitcoin improvements and like at this rate, it seems like it's
going to take a while because we're also trying to be forward thinking.
We have other low level architectural changes that we want to make in order to be prepared
for future Bitcoin protocol improvements, taproot, hopefully sometime next year, which
will then support aggregated signatures, which will be a huge boon for CASA users and for
any multisig users, both from the privacy standpoint and the like how much transaction
fees you have to pay a standpoint.
So lots of work to do there.
I don't want to spoil anything, but suffice to say the existing landscape of hardware
devices has been fairly static until recently.
We had a cold card has been I think one of the newer ones that has been getting more
adoption this year.
We're starting to see other devices.
I mean, obviously I haven't been to any conferences in like six months now, but when at the tail
end of my last run of conferences, I was seeing a lot of new prototype devices that were coming
out and some of those were very exciting to me for a few different reasons, both on the
technical security side and on the usability side.
So one of the things that we're always trying to continue to do is to simplify and improve
the user experience.
And I think that some of these new hardware devices will enable us to do that.
Up until now, it's actually been kind of a challenging environment to be working as a
multi-vendor hardware platform because really I think a lot of these hardware vendors have
been thinking of themselves as like a full vertical stack where they create the hardware
wallet.
They also create all the wallet software.
And there's been some friction there with the different hardware companies just because
they keep pushing out things, changing things, and sometimes it breaks our stuff.
And I'm hoping that we can continue to mature this space to the point that we can find some
equilibrium and have some better communication that these device vendors start to see themselves
as platforms that people are building a wide variety of software on top of.
You're not going to do the car-to-hardware wallet, are you?
Well, we are not a hardware engineering company at the moment.
We won't say we would never do it, but we would certainly want to bring on people with
hardware expertise if we went down that path.
But from the hardware product that we had with the node for a while, we learned a lot
about how different it is to manage and maintain and support physical hardware.
There's so many more things that can go wrong and it's a lot harder to get insight into
what the hardware is doing when it's not in your possession.
Actually, I don't know if I'd want that.
I'll be honest.
I don't know if I'd want that because it's kind of like you're the gatekeeper and I work
with three other kind of vendors.
That would reduce the diversity, right?
That would kind of add more trust onto CASA if we were also creating the hardware devices.
I think earlier you were basically saying you're not going to support any other cryptocurrencies.
Not anytime soon.
That's also something that can always change.
It's basically, well, it's building software, of course, but then we've spent a fair amount
of time investigating and making decisions about this, especially a year or two ago where
if we're talking about adding other cryptocurrencies into our three of five multi-sig product,
then you start getting this Venn diagram of dependencies and requirements of now all the
hardware devices have to support that, whatever digital signature scheme they're using.
There have to be software libraries for interfacing with the hardware devices and doing that and
other software devices for Android and iOS.
Essentially it becomes less and less likely that you meet all of those requirements unless
you're talking about maybe Ethereum, the really, really popular ones.
I can imagine Ethereum is the one you get asked for probably most, but yeah.
When you think about what we're trying to do, we're trying to make the usability and
security as high as possible.
When you get into the complexity that Jameson was talking about with adding other currencies
that work very differently than Bitcoin, you really have to be careful because the complexity
just ratchets up significantly.
As a security provider, we like to say that we'd rather be an inch wide and a mile deep
than a mile wide and an inch deep.
We want to make sure that the security and the experience that we build is the absolute
best and we can do that by focusing on Bitcoin.
What about Lightning?
Is that something you guys have to consider at all?
Does Lightning either have a multi-sig scenario?
I'm way out of my-
Lightning doesn't really have the equivalent of multi-sig from a user facing perspective.
You're not really dealing with that, but I think Lightning as a technology is very interesting.
We did dip into that with the CASA node and I think that it's been growing a lot.
It's an area that we're keeping an eye on and when there's sufficient demand for us
to actually build something usable in that area, then we'll definitely do it.
There's a lot of potential path forward that could happen with Lightning.
At a technical level right now, a Lightning channel is a two of two multi-sig, but it's
between you and someone else.
It's not a multi-sig from your perspective of having to authorize multiple signatures
yourself.
Now, there are possibilities in the future where we might see various types of Lightning,
almost CoinJoin style aggregated signatures where there are a lot of different parties
that are essentially sharing a Lightning channel and sending funds through it.
I don't think this is something that we need to worry about for at least the next few years.
Especially while the Lightning node product that we did got a lot of traction and I think
a lot of people liked it, we realized one of the issues is that it was so cutting edge.
It was really engineering intensive just for us to keep up with the pace of the changes
that were coming down from the Lightning developers.
If we're talking about building a security product, we want to try to minimize the volatility
at the technical levels just so that we can manage it and have a more stable platform.
I'm thinking of ideas I want as I go and I'm wondering if whether this is a good idea.
You have another...
I've not actually played with it.
You do have a normal wallet.
Don't you?
A normal...
Have you ever thought of mixing them?
Just like in one app, I have my vault, which is my multi-sig, my vault, my normal wallet,
having them together.
Yeah.
That's what you have right now.
I don't know if you've actually gone over to...
I do?
I've never used it.
Yeah.
If you open it up, at the top of the home screen, you can select between your multi-sig
and your normal wallet.
I've never even seen it, but I hear.
Your normal wallet is super easy to use.
It's like using a single signature wallet on your phone, but we've taken out the part
where you have to worry about all the technical stuff like backing up your seed phrase and
all that.
To do that, we've come up with a secure backup mechanism that gets into the technical details,
but it really makes it easy for it to feel like you're using Coinbase or a Coinbase style
wallet, but you're still in full control of the keys.
I thought it was a separate app.
I didn't even...
See, this makes me now want to have a Lightning wallet in here as well.
Yeah.
That's what we would probably do one day when Lightning gets to the point where we feel comfortable
like building something to support it.
There's enough demand for that.
That's what we would do because we've already got the structure set up in there, right?
It's kind of cool.
It would be nice here if I could just transfer from my vault into my single...
You can.
Yeah, but I have to...
You still have to sign with the keys, so you can't just move it because that would break
the security.
No, no, no.
But it says receive here.
I have to copy the address, then I have to go into...
No, there's actually a shortcut.
If you want to send from one CASA setup to another, then during the send flow, on the
page or the screen where you can scan a QR code or put in an address, there's shortcuts
for your other CASA wallets and that'll automatically paste in the address.
I've had this and I didn't even realize it was in there.
That's brilliant.
Okay.
That's really, really useful to know.
Yeah.
So that's like your poker money.
Yeah.
It's my poker money.
Yeah.
Well, not based on how I've been paying the last three months.
I'd have to put some of that into the shield.
Anything else coming on?
Yeah, so from a user facing feature perspective, we don't really talk a lot about like, here's
the big things that we're building because we like to make the fun announcement once
it's ready.
But from an overall kind of thematic perspective, what we're working on is just making it as
easy as possible for people to secure and use their Bitcoin by securing their private
keys.
Right?
So we look at Bitcoin as it's got these two amazing features that are different than any
money before it.
One of them is that it has this 21 million hard cap.
The other one is that it's digital money that you can actually own.
And so the actually own it as digital money part is what we're really interested in as
a company.
And that's what we think a lot of people miss about Bitcoin when they just buy it to hold
it on an exchange or something.
So how can we drive that part of the adoption as much as possible?
Because that's how Bitcoin is really going to succeed as if both of those two major breakthroughs
are really adopted and understood by people around the world.
Right.
We talked a lot about that.
Okay, before we do the closeout, so Jameson has talked people through, they set themselves
up with CASA, they've got it in place, they've distributed their keys.
Still, what are the other things people should be aware of, they should be thinking about?
Because even though you've got this, you still don't want to place a massive advert, I mean,
I have because of what I do, but you don't want to put an advert out there and say, well,
I've got a CASA wallet now with all my keys distributed.
You still don't want that.
You still don't want someone to put yourself under some certain threats.
That's why I've geographically...
That's interesting though.
Well, I know what you're going to say.
So, okay, let me still say it because I want to see if you actually know what I'm going
to say.
When you are using CASA, there's this interesting thought that we throw around sometimes that
like, let's say you've got a home security system.
You put a sign outside your door that says, I've got a home security system from ADT or
whatever it is.
And that actually deters people from coming after you because it makes it harder for them
to break into your home.
So, is there the equivalent of that for a CASA user with Bitcoin?
It's so hard for you to steal my Bitcoin that I actually want to tell you that I use CASA
because that keeps you from even going after me in the first place.
It's like, don't even bother here because you're not going to get it.
I see what you're saying.
So that's good for certain public faces.
So myself, Jameson.
But a lot of people might secretly hold Bitcoin.
So they don't want to say, I've got CASA because you are introducing that.
When it becomes commonplace that most people have Bitcoin, that's maybe the place.
I see what you're saying about me.
It's good to say that.
I mean, I still don't want somebody coming at me.
Well, this works if we're talking about $5 wrench attacks where someone is trying to
coerce you physically into moving your money.
And I also have a recent blog post about that and that's why physical separation of keys
into access controlled locations is the way to prevent $5 wrench attacks.
Now ultimately, CASA is a digital security provider, not a physical security provider.
So we can't do anything to protect you from a situation like a ransom or hostage situation.
Like if someone you care about is taken and coerced and now you have some other reason
why you might then want to go around and authorize all the transactions.
That's a situation where you really need to think more about the physical security side
of things.
I've got plenty of blog posts about that too, as you're probably aware.
Yeah.
Well, I'm aware because I've seen part of your arsenal because I've shot some of your
guns.
But the reality in the UK, I can't do that.
I have to have a very different...
I can have a kitchen knife and a spoon, but I can't have an AR-15.
But I get what you're saying.
That is a different scenario.
But still, are there certain things, we won't cover it all again now because I'll send people
to the other shows, but are there certain basics in terms of internet security, personal
profile that you think people should just be very careful about?
There's a good reason why a lot of people in the Bitcoin space are anonymous.
We have all these funny avatars.
We have a space cat who loves tacos, who is a prominent figure in the community.
It all goes back to Satoshi Nakamoto.
This is the originator of understanding that holding onto a digital bearer asset that is
controversial in nature and may upset very powerful entities, may incentivize very powerful
or bad entities to come after you and physically harm you, the best protection against that
is to essentially hide and make it so that they don't have a target to attack in the
first place.
There is this trade-off that I've talked about for a while, especially once I started doing
the cataloging of physical attacks against Bitcoiners, which is that it's a catch-22
situation that once you're in the Bitcoin space, you are incentivized to talk about
it because you want the network to grow, you want adoption to grow.
That will ultimately be good for you as a Bitcoin holder, it will be good for Bitcoin
in general because it makes it stronger against all types of attacks.
But the flip side is that once you start doing that or at least if you start doing that proselytizing,
that evangelism with your government name as it were, then this opens up a whole bunch
of attacks just due to the default lack of privacy that we have.
Right.
Okay.
Well, look, I'm happy.
Look, I'm happy.
I've got my casters set up and it was so much easier than I expected and it's such a peace
of mind to have it, especially when it's a bull run and I don't have a lot of Bitcoin
but I have enough to know this is worth doing and I think other people should check it out.
Nick, is there anything I've not covered that you wish I'd have asked or covered in this?
I don't think so.
I mean, I think that the last point you made there is a really good one about peace of
mind and something that I heard another client of ours say recently was, I've heard people
talk about their peace of mind that they get with CASA, but I was just kind of like, maybe
they're exaggerating.
But after I set it up, it was like a weight was lifted off my shoulders and I totally
didn't expect that.
And so it's almost like people underestimate the amount of peace of mind that it gets you
once you finally get it set up.
There's a lot of-
Totally.
Yeah.
People, I know personally for me, like before we built CASA, I had a lot of just basic kind
of back of my mind anxiety about my Bitcoin and that's just gone totally.
Well, that's what I had, that's when I reached out to you, I was like, no, I need to do this,
I need to get this sorted, this piece of paper is going to be the downfall of me and I'm
going to be crying.
All right.
Well, look, brilliant.
Look, I'm glad we're working together.
You know, it's a pleasure getting the product set up.
Okay.
Listen, anyone listening, get your fucking shit together.
You're going to hear an answer for this as well on the show, which is going to be weird,
but definitely check out CASA, it's probably my favorite.
I think I said recently, it's my favorite company in the space.
I love what you're doing.
The product's amazing.
It is very Bitcoin as a product in, it's just got a very Bitcoin feel to it.
All right.
So if people are interested, Nick, where do they find out more?
Yep.
So you can go to our website, which is keys.casa, K-E-Y-S dot C-A-S-A.
You can also follow us on Twitter at CASA HODL and then you can find me and Jameson
on Twitter as well.
Yeah.
Jameson, tell people where to go and find all your jazz as well.
You can check out my website at Bitcoin dot page or lop dot net.
They'll both get you to the same place.
And my handle on Twitter is just lop, L-O-P-P.
Awesome guys.
Well, let's keep it up.
Amazing work.
Love welcoming you guys.
And hopefully once this lockdown bullshit is over, we'll actually meet up again soon.
Yeah.
Thanks Pete.
Looking forward to it.
Thanks.
Okay.
So what did you make of that?
Did you enjoy that?
Did you enjoy hearing about CASA solution and the different ways to protect your Bitcoin
security and the different attack vectors?
Look, as I said in the intro, they are a customer, but I am a customer of theirs too.
I will be staying a customer once the sponsorship ends.
It's been so much peace of mind for me to have this solution set up.
You know what?
There's like this other side issue because of the way it's set up.
It's actually really difficult to actually move Bitcoin out of it because of the way
the keys are distributed.
It's an absolute pain.
So it just ends up becoming this long-term saving solution.
But yes, I love it.
I think CASA are great.
I've always been a big fan of Jameson.
He's been on the shows a bunch of times.
Definitely go and check him out.
Look, go and review it.
And also, if you've got questions, you can reach out to me.
You can ask me about my experience.
My email address is hello at whatbitcoindid.com.
Happy to talk about it.
Happy to tell you what I've been through.
And yeah, hope you enjoyed the show.
Outside of that, I am chasing down reviews.
If you enjoy the show, if you want to help me a couple of minutes, it will take you.
Just go over to iTunes, leave me a review.
Look, if you think of the show as shit and you just want to leave me a one-star review,
that's fine.
If you don't, I hope you enjoy it.
Five-star reviews help.
But this all helps with the rankings in iTunes.
So a little job over iTunes, leave me a review and I will greatly appreciate that.
Outside of that, please do go and check out my other show Defiance.
I've completed the four-parter about The Ghost Inside.
Universally great reviews.
People really enjoyed it, which is super because it was a really personal project.
But definitely go and check that out.
It's a four-part story.
It's absolutely fascinating what that band's been through.
And outside of that, have a great week and I will see you all soon.