So, Mr. President Trump yesterday made an announcement that they're going to keep the, what is it,
they got about 200,000 Bitcoin?
Yeah.
Is that right?
No, it's more than that, isn't it?
I mean, they have around 200,000, but over half of it belongs to Bitfinex.
Yeah.
That's the point.
They've got, I heard 1% of the supply and then somebody tweeted, but hold on a second.
Like half of that is Bitfinex.
I think Jameson tweeted that.
Yeah.
Was that your tweet I saw?
I did put that out there, yes.
Yeah.
That must have been it then.
Okay.
Can we walk back a couple of steps?
If we know that it's Bitfinex's, because I remember reading and assumed they, I remember
reading that it'd been recovered, I assumed Bitfinex had it transferred back to them.
Bitfinex would certainly like for it to be transferred back to them.
Now I know I asked Paolo about this a year ago, and he was cautiously optimistic that
they would eventually get it back, but I think the federal government is not going to make
it easy.
I don't know of any specific legal motions that have or have not been filed with regard
to it, but another thing is that technically that whole case is still lingering.
Right.
Okay.
Let's, where do I even start with this?
Do I start with my conspiracy hat on?
Okay.
So there was a hack years ago, Bitfinex made everyone whole.
They did a token, right?
Correct.
They did a token.
And everyone got made whole.
They, based on the performance of the exchange, they would buy back the token or burn the
token.
It was complicated, right?
And it depended on what jurisdiction you were in.
I think people generally not in America had some options to get Bitfinex equity.
Other people were given this recovery token, which then traded freely on the market for
a couple of years until the point at which they offered to completely, you know, buy
back one to one and give people the Bitcoin.
But it was, it was actually seen as a good token, wasn't it?
And it was a, well, it was one of the best executed token launches of all time.
Because people got their money back.
Yes.
Which is great.
So, okay.
And then, but the cost to Bitfinex was the cost of operating the token and paying people
back.
But they made everyone whole again.
Yeah.
What, how many, how many Bitcoin were hacked from them?
It was 119,756, I believe, that's like half a percent of the supply.
That's a lot.
Of Bitcoin.
Okay.
And then move forward a few years.
We find out that they've discovered like a hardware wallet under a blanket, under a
trapdoor, under a bed.
We were thinking about the Silk Road guy.
Oh, was that a different one?
That was a different case.
All right.
So, then there was this weird couple, like she was a kind of shitty rapper, a couple
of, it was like a couple of white kids, right?
They looked about 25 years old.
Literally living on Wall Street.
Yeah.
And everyone's like, they don't look like hackers, okay, fine.
And they've got an ongoing case.
Right.
So, they were arrested, I want to say almost a couple of years ago, charged, pled guilty
a year ago.
Now, I think that they only really pled guilty to money laundering.
I'm not sure if they pled guilty to the actual hacking.
What was their punishment?
Well, that's the thing.
There hasn't been any.
We're still waiting.
It's been a year at this point.
You know, to top everything else off, she's been showing up at various Bitcoin events.
Well, that isn't the largest part of my conspiracy, because everyone turns up, even Dorian Nakamoto
turned up at once.
Like everyone seems to just turn up at events, but what's the value of those $127,000?
$137,000?
Billions.
Yeah, I don't know.
But billions.
Okay.
$4.5 billion.
Oh, no, actually, it's more than that.
I don't know.
And so, one conspiracy hat of mine would say, the government won't give her back, and they'll
say, this is a trade-off for you to operate tether.
Maybe.
Maybe.
You can keep operating tether, and we're keeping this.
That's your fee.
So, but it makes me almost think it's like, these people weren't the hackers.
They found a couple of people who said, hey, take the hit.
We'll, yeah, you won't go to jail.
It's one possibility.
I mean, though, I've seen, at least in some of the news articles that seem to be implying
that Ilya basically admitted to hacking or doing the actual theft.
Okay.
And I think that Heather, the girlfriend or wife, she only admitted to the money laundering
and to defrauding the federal government somehow.
So, had they been spending the coins?
They, I think they spent a little bit, but the vast majority of it, they were still holding
on to, because if I recall, because it's been over a year since I read it is like, they
really convoluted accounting system where they were just even trying to keep track of
all the coins and trying to not leak too much information, but I don't think that they were
very good at understanding how to navigate to the very difficult aspects of Bitcoin privacy.
How did they get caught?
I mean, I think that basically some of the coins got traced to a KYC account.
There was also some relation to one of the Bitcoin mixers, maybe Bitcoin Fog, and I think
that Ilya made some sort of deal with the government and helped them crack into that Bitcoin mixing
service and take it down as well, but there's a lot of fishy stuff going, a lot of stuff
we don't know, and it seems like their plea deal and likely punishment is going to be
absurdly light given the levity of the crime.
With the connection to Bitcoin Fog, do you think there's maybe some reason that Roman
ended up being arrested?
Or is that a stretch?
I mean, I don't think we have any reason to believe it's directly related, but it's just
more evidence of the government wanting to take down any strong privacy services that are
making law enforcement's job more difficult.
You have 737,000 Bitcoin that you stole and you've got a lot of money that's very hard
to spend.
I mean, you say they had a complicated accounting method, had they kept them in different places
or something?
Yeah, I think there was some report of them just having some giant spreadsheets with just
hundreds of addresses trying to keep things segregated, but basically it seemed like it
was a manual thing.
If you're managing that level of complexity manually, you're going to make mistakes.
Yeah, they needed a James on their team.
Okay, what are your suspicions?
Well, I think it's even more suspicious that Heather has been showing up at various events
and from what I've been told, ingratiating herself, a lot of people trying to get close
to people.
Who knows if she's trying to get information.
I think it's likely that she's working with the state.
Who knows what they're trying to get her to do.
What did she look like?
I posted the photo.
How did you?
I want to see if I know her.
I posted the photo an hour or so ago and I've had a stream of more people coming to me and
saying, oh crap, I had dinner with this person or I shared a ride with this person.
A lot of people have been having conversations, not even knowing the background and who knows
what information they might leak to her.
She looks familiar, but I don't know.
Let me just be familiar.
See if you can find any more photos of her.
Was that her at the conference?
I didn't get any photos of her this week.
She's a potential spook.
It's a weird thing.
We've got a Trump potential incumbent administration talking a big game about leaving Bitcoin as
the fuck alone, holding Bitcoin, potential strategic treasury asset, wanting to break down
parts of the deep state and the administrative state.
Then you've got her who's potentially working for the state either through a Biden administration
directly or the administrative and deep state, which might become part of the Republican
administration of Trump wins.
We already know that we're all on lists.
We haven't known what those lists are being used for.
I'm on this, I was told it's called secondary.
After I interviewed Bacchalee when I flew back into, we had this, do you think it's
bad to talk about that meeting?
Have you ever talked about it?
You've done it loads before.
I'm here, the actual meeting meeting it with Michael Peterson.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he said on the podcast, but I'm not 100% sure.
Yeah, we think we had a CIA visit.
I met somebody from USAID when I was over there and they also have a meeting with us.
They invited me to the embassy, but I said, no, come to my hotel.
Three people turned up.
I asked Michael Peterson to join me and he was a USAID person, a state department person,
then this other guy just said he worked for the government.
I was just naive.
We just sat there asking.
They were just asking about Bitcoin, but the guy who said he worked for the government
was asking questions like how would a Guatemalan gang use Bitcoin to extort the El Salvador
and government while the other guys were like, what's mining and what's, etc.
I've had similar experiences just like help us understand like how people could be doing
malicious things.
Like what should we be looking for type of stuff?
Well, I was only after he left that Michael said to me, I think that guy was CIA and I
was like, really?
I didn't think I'd be in that world.
But ever since then, so when I flew back over and I went through passport control, they
checked my passport and then they said, oh, you have to come with me.
It was like Houston or Dallas, I can't remember where.
Maybe Austin.
Anyway, wherever you fly from San Salvador and it was just like another part, immigration
room and it was many South Americans in there and me and you wait your turn and they asked
the same questions.
They asked you at the front desk and then they let you go.
It's only took like a couple of minutes, but it's almost every time I go into the US,
this happens now.
Like I always joke with you.
The only time it hasn't happened reason is when I went in with the kids, which is interesting.
Yeah.
I'm actually surprised that I've never had any issues at the border.
But I mean, I remember Eric Voorhees, he talked about, I'm sure he's talked about that.
What was that?
I don't know.
I think they took his laptop, but yeah.
But when people say you're on the list, yeah, am I really though?
Am I really?
I just make a podcast.
Damn.
But anyway, so we've got to keep it out for her.
It's such a weird situation.
It's almost like the US government's at war with itself or what it should be.
Well, I think Peter, was it Peter Valkenberg, he had a really good quote a few months ago
where he basically said, look, the US government is not a monolith.
It's a kraken.
Like one hand doesn't necessarily talk to the other.
It's just such a huge organization that every agency is trying to do its own thing and trying
to figure out, you know, how do I even treat this system?
So we should not expect for there to be a coherent response from the government broadly on how they're treating us.
So what do you make of yesterday?
By the way, my opinion has evolved.
Okay.
What on Trump?
Yeah.
What he did yesterday.
I was a bit like, afterwards, but I thought about it a bit more and I'm like, oh no, no.
It was very positive.
Yeah.
I mean, look, it was some good pandering.
I, for one, felt seen by Trump that he recognized that I'm a highly intelligent individual.
But look, he had a lot of good talking points.
He's been fed the talking points from Bitcoiners, right?
Didn't come out of nowhere.
But if you're, for example, like comparing Trump's speech to RFK's speech, RFK has been doing his homework a lot longer than Trump.
And so he's been able to come up with, I think, much more coherent policy and opinions.
And so I think that most Bitcoiners would probably agree that RFK would be like better for Bitcoin.
And it's just a shame that he's in the position that he is in.
And meanwhile, we have Trump trying to play catch up.
Yeah.
And I'm a little bit forgiven in that you have to, like, I think we have to understand the amount of things these people are dealing with.
And Trump on top of trying to be elected is dealing with multiple lawsuits, accusations, assassination attempts.
Yeah.
You stand and run on the mill stuff as a popular ex-president, soon to be maybe 47th president.
But that you rely on a group of advisors around you and you have some basic key talking points.
But you're not an expert.
I'm okay with that.
I'm okay with if in the background his belief and thoughts are, well, this is good and we should protect it.
If he doesn't fully understand that, okay.
No, no.
It's a learning experience for him, too, right?
It's like he obviously didn't have much of a clue which of his talking points were going to be bigger than others.
And he was genuinely surprised when he said, you know, I'm going to fire Gary Gensler and everyone went wild.
And so, you know, he's not dumb.
He's going to learn from that.
And he's going to lean into the talking points where, you know, he's getting feedback from the public when he's doing these speeches.
This is one of the reasons he goes around and does all these rallies.
He's honing his craft.
He's honing his message.
He's tested.
Yeah, he's tested.
Look, it's really no different than how comedians stand up comedians work, right?
It's just politics instead of comedy, though he has a bit of comedy, too.
He's quite funny.
But yeah, so I was kind of OK with it.
And I also, like one of the things that was on my mind, I was thinking about last night was, you know, he has survived a assassination attempt of which we don't know if that is just some lone weirder or some more deep-rooted, complicated attempt to get rid of somebody ple, whatever.
But that I'm sure plays on your mind.
If you wake up one day and think, holy shit, if I had not just turned my head at that moment, I'd be dead.
Add to that, I'm not going to pass judgment on the accusations or the lawsuits, but it does appear that some of them appear to be more egregious attempts to try and take him down.
While some of the things that, you know, should be questioned, I think was it Georgia State that he phoned up and said, find me some votes, kind of.
Whatever they are, anyone listening, don't get angry.
The point being is that he feels attacked and he feels like the administrative state, the deep state, whatever you want is attacking him.
Oh, well, there's a bunch of people here who kind of like me are feeling attacked and all they are are free citizens who want to be free and left the fuck alone.
So I can see a scenario where he's come around to Bitcoin and kind of gets it and feels an affinity with Bitcoiners.
If it's knowing who I know, who's talked to him or his team and explained it, that kind of makes sense.
Yeah, he, well, I don't think that anyone rises to the level of politics that he has without doing some questionable things, right?
So I don't necessarily pick on any one politician more than another.
I think they've all got skeletons in the closet.
Yeah, who's the best linebag for me?
But yeah, so I think, I mean, but for me, yeah, so I think we felt a little bit disappointed afterwards.
I was just really, I was very happy that the conversation happened there and that was really cool.
But the actual speech I thought was meh.
Yeah, but I thought afterwards is the fact that the speech happened was not meh afterwards.
I was actually the fact that he was there, even if it took some lobbying, he was there and he was talking pro about Bitcoin.
And it is on the agenda is on the radar.
I think, yeah, I mean, is there a more, is there a more high profile person in the world right now?
No.
I mean, you could maybe go, OK, well, him and Elon are the two most high profile,
but they've essentially got the most high profile person in the world to come to Nashville and give a speech about Bitcoin
and talk relatively positively about it.
That's as opposed to an administration for the last four years who's done everything to attack it.
Yeah, I mean, it's raising the profile.
You know, I think, well, first of all, I was surprised when El Salvador was the first nation to go the route of declaring Bitcoin legal tender.
I had predicted it was going to happen like five years earlier, but I was predicting it to be a micro nation, you know,
really, really small government that has a much bigger incentive to do that.
So I was surprised that a country the size of El Salvador was the first mover.
And now it's doubly surprising that the United States would be the next one after that.
You know, I was expecting Bukele to be going around to all of his peers, you know, Latin America area and saying, hey, you guys need to get in on this.
And I'm sure he is doing that and it will happen.
But it is kind of crazy that we may see America actually take a sort of leadership position on Bitcoin in the entire space.
And maybe it is partially because, you know, Trump has felt attacked and marginalized and you see some parallels with the government attacking us.
Do we know how much Bitcoin El Salvador holds at the moment?
And it's completely public on they have a whole website dedicated to it.
Oh, do they?
Yeah, yeah, they have a custom mempool space instance.
Do they?
Yeah, they do.
I didn't even know this.
I feel like they could have pushed it harder.
I want to say it's around 5,000.
Here we go.
It's a good stack.
It's a bit hard to see from here, but yeah, nearly 6,000 Bitcoin.
Yeah.
So another eight in the last day.
Did they say they were going to buy one a day for like?
Yeah, yeah.
It says plus eight in the past seven days.
So basically one per day.
So they are actually doing that.
Do we know what their average buy price is versus what it's worth now?
Can you figure that out from here?
I don't think so.
I mean, they're almost certainly up.
I would guess probably around 30,000.
So what's it saying?
They've got their 300 and 394 million based on current value.
I'm sure somebody can do the work very easily to go back and figure that out.
Look at the step ladder up staircase up.
Yeah.
I mean, at some point their stacks going to be a billion.
They're going to have a billion of Bitcoin and they will have spent.
Who knows what a couple hundred million and that's that's going to be that story
where other countries are going to go, but we're too late.
It's like when your friends see that you bought Bitcoin,
maybe bought a new house or something.
They think, oh, you've done so well.
You're so lucky.
And they think they're too late.
That's the only slight issue.
I mean, it's also entirely possible that some other nation states are
stealthily buying Bitcoin and mining Bitcoin.
They just or yeah, mining, acquiring it.
However, and just don't want to announce it because you announce it
and you just, you make the race go even faster.
So you have a chat with Elon Musk there.
Yeah, but it's nothing relevant.
Still funny and weird.
Yeah.
I mean, look, if the US is the second country, that would be fascinating.
If I was okay.
They'd definitely make a meme about Bitcoin with it as America's second.
But again, it's kind of, it's kind of interesting in that we are in this world
where we have it now on the geopolitical table.
And I think that was another observation of Trump's,
which I think that's something that would ring true with him when he thinks,
well, if we don't do it, somebody else will.
Well, we're America.
Well, yeah, look, it's the industry.
And remember, he mentioned industry numerous times in his speech.
Compared to the steel industry.
It's the industry that has put together all these political action groups
that have been outspending all the other industries in America.
And that got a lot of attention.
It's the industry that has a lot of people who have started going out
and creating those political connections, creating all of those back roads.
I'm not really deep into politics myself.
I'm not a fan of a lot of the sort of double faced nature of it.
But the people who are and who believe that there's an actual need for us
to use whatever political advantages we can get,
they have definitely made a lot of progress over the past year.
The coolest part I thought was the fact that he doubled,
tripled down on the free Ross thing.
And it's still so wild to me that this weird,
nerd internet money might free a human being from prison.
Well, of all of his promises,
I think that would be the easiest to actually accomplish.
So it seems to be a very low risk maneuver.
Yeah, it's going to, I mean, all eyes on November.
It's going to be very interesting.
Okay.
I mean, look, we actually got you here to talk about security as our regular
bull market catch up with Lop.
Talk about security where we're at, what people should be doing,
because people email the show a lot.
And it's about this time that they're starting to email us and say,
what should I do?
Yeah.
Pete, I have this much Bitcoin.
What should I do?
Well, you've already failed.
Yeah.
Don't talk about Bitcoin.
So, and I've got my own personal questions about certain things.
Yeah, certain security practices that I'm thinking about.
And I'm going to get to that.
I just think as a background, for people who hasn't heard the story,
and I know we've done it a couple of times,
but the swatting story is super interesting.
Can we just run through that again just so people can understand what you
went through that led you to really think in more detail about security?
Yeah.
So summing up about 15 years of history in a few minutes,
I started out as just a regular Bitcoin nerd.
I was interested in the space for a couple of years, had some open source projects,
went full time, started tweeting regularly,
basically daily basis about Bitcoin,
went from having a few hundred followers when I started in 2015
to by the end of 2017, I think I had over 100,000 at that point.
And what a lot of people don't realize is that as you grow the number
of people who are listening to you, you're getting more attention,
and it's not all going to be good attention, right?
It's sort of a law of large numbers that despite the fact that the vast majority
of humanity are good people, moral people who don't want to hurt others,
there's always going to be that small like single digit percentage
of psychopaths and sociopaths and people who will do whatever they can
if they think it benefits them.
So it was in 2017 when my entire neighborhood got shut down by police
and SWAT teams because someone had decided that they wanted to try to extort me.
And they did that by calling up my local law enforcement pretending to be me
and using all of the right trigger words to get a lethal response pointed at my doorstep.
And he basically said that they were me, that they had murdered someone,
they were holding hostages, they had explosives, and they were demanding a ransom.
So that's all you need to get lethal force deployed against you in America.
And I had a few fortunate things go on that day,
mainly that I actually was not at home at the specific time when it happened.
I was at the gym and I ran into the law enforcement blockade trying to get back
to my home and it took a little while to figure out that they were looking for me.
So if not for that, things could have ended very differently
because I literally had several weapons laying out in my living room at that time
because I had been to the shooting range the day before and I was going to be cleaning them the next day.
So that and the fact that I had dogs and law enforcement dogs don't get along very well.
And we've seen footage of law enforcement responding to situations
and trigger happy shooting people when they're completely in the wrong.
There have been innocent swatting victims who have been accidentally killed by law enforcement
in some cases because they had firearms and they thought that they were being attacked by criminals.
So a short version that ended quickly and without anyone being harmed.
But of course, I was fearful for my life because I realized that now anyone who wanted to could easily find me
and come and try to extort me, harm me, so on and so forth.
And that kicked off a very long process.
What's the theory of the extort using swatting to extort you?
How do they extort you in that process?
Yeah, so it's basically that this is a potentially lethal incident
and when someone swats you, they can do it again.
In fact, we know of celebrities who have been swatted dozens of times.
And law enforcement, obviously this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction,
but there seems to be this issue of law enforcement is just stupid
and can't seem to write down a note that, hey, this person is a high-profile target that keeps getting swatted.
I think there are one or two cities where they have implemented some specific whitelists for this type of problem,
but I guess it's just not widespread enough for large law enforcement organizations to have dedicated policies around it.
So you keep doing it over and over and over again.
You only have to win one time for something to go wrong and people to get hurt.
So it's a different type of threat and the main reason it's a crazy type of threat is because it's totally asymmetric to the attacker.
The attacker is not risking bodily harm to themselves at all.
They're actually getting two completely different sets of people to be interacting physically and possibly having lethal consequences.
Have you seen this has started happening a lot with live streams as well?
I have seen it.
Well, that's how it started.
It started in the video gaming community.
Interesting.
Basically, popular live streamer video gamers who would get large audiences and then inevitably piss a few people off,
it became a game to have the SWAT team bust down their door while they were live streaming just so you could laugh at them and them being afraid.
Have they caught many people who have actually instigated the SWAT?
No, I think the case closure rate on this is probably in the like 10 to 20% range.
Is it harsh punishment if you caught doing that?
Well, I can tell you what happened to my attacker.
I believe that one of the cases where someone actually got killed, there was a decent amount of prison time because it was kind of like second degree murder.
But first of all, after the fact, like once it's over, it's very difficult to get law enforcement to pursue these cases because it's just because of how law enforcement prioritizes dealing with criminals.
And because once the incident is over, there's no longer clear and present danger to anyone from their perspective, I would argue differently.
They generally do not have it very high on their priority list.
This is why like for my own case, I had to expend a lot of my own personal time and money doing a lot of the legwork or law enforcement because they wouldn't.
It took me over a year to get the attention of federal authorities to do anything about it and it was kind of happenstance.
I was fortunate enough that I was at a Satoshi Roundtable event and I met someone who had the right FBI connections to the cyber crime division who specifically dealt with this type of thing.
And so I gathered a lot of the information by posting a $100,000 bounty on my attacker.
That was by far the most helpful thing that I did.
And so basically their friends started rolling over on them and giving me a lot of information.
And even once I had collected it all and handed it over to them, it took several years for anything to happen.
I had given up on getting a closure to the case.
And then once they finally found the guy, it turned out he was this punk teenager living in his mom's basement.
Once I learned about his whole life story, I generally felt sorry for the guy.
He kind of fell in with the wrong crowd.
He ended up using his skills for bad things instead of good things.
And I went to court and I met him.
I said, hey, I get it.
I did some stupid shit when I was a kid and I hope you'll turn your life around.
So he didn't get any incarceration.
I didn't want him to.
I don't think that would have helped his life.
He had community service and he was told he needed to complete his GED and get his driver's license and become a productive member of society.
But he's one of many.
There is a lot of people out there doing that.
And we've seen a lot of teenagers these days are doing sim swapping.
They're doing social engineering of people trying to crack into your exchange accounts and drain them.
It's an interesting phenomenon that I've learned a lot about because here's what happened when they actually caught the guy.
I was told through my attorneys, hey, the FBI found him, but the federal district attorney and that jurisdiction is declining to prosecute.
Why?
Because apparently federal system doesn't have a juvenile system.
It's very difficult for them to charge people who do stuff when they're not an adult.
And so the only reason that I actually ended getting any sort of justice was because the state district attorney did agree to prosecute.
And so this is why a lot of these teenagers are doing this stuff.
Some of them are doing it because there are adults who are kind of training them and saying, hey, you can do this.
You can get rich and you can get away with it.
Even if you get caught, it'll be a slap on the wrist because the juvenile system doesn't want to throw you in your prison for a long period of time.
That's what the kids did on the phone to Jim Seth.
Exactly.
I wonder how that kid's doing now.
Yeah.
Can I talk about when I came to that house?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Bear in mind, I'd never seen a gun like really.
And this is episode three of before the recording episode three of what Bitcoin did with Jameson.
And I said, I wanted to shoot a gun.
So he invited me over to his house and I felt like I walked into the Alamo.
There was just guns everywhere.
Big ones, little ones.
Yeah.
I was like, which ones do you want to shoot?
We can only put so many in the truck.
I was like, I'm a little bit nervous.
Have you shot a gun yet?
Yeah.
Yeah.
A few times.
But I've never actually shot a, I've shot like handguns and a shotgun.
I've never shot a rifle.
I can't remember what we shot.
We shot a bunch of guns and it just, yeah.
Yeah.
It was interesting.
I think I did get you on the Chris Vector, you know, the sub gun that has a V shaped slide to it.
One of them was an older gun.
I remember that.
An older gun.
I just remember the first one we shot just being blown away by the absolute fucking power of it.
Absolute power of it.
It was just like, wow.
Okay.
So back to security.
Even people who've heard our previous shows, they're probably in a different security bracket now.
You kind of go up security brackets every four years.
You're going to have people who maybe have a few hundred dollars a Bitcoin or maybe a few thousand or they've got to the tens of thousands,
hundreds of thousands, millions, even tens of millions.
Like every bracket, you have to reconsider your security.
And it's something I've had to go through.
You've probably had to go through.
It's probably had to go through.
You certainly had to go through.
There's a lot to think about this.
And it's personal mistakes.
It can be accidents that happen.
It can be hacks.
It can be violent tax.
Yeah.
There's a lot of things to think about.
I'm certainly in the region of thinking more about violence and less so my mistakes.
I think I'm long enough not to make the mistakes, but not being completely naive.
But somebody just first starting to think about Bitcoin and their security.
Where do you start with people?
Well, the first thing is the mindset, right?
And so I think a really good rule of thumb is that you should take whatever the value of your stash is and you should 10 exit.
Because, as we know, Bitcoin can be volatile and it can do a 10 X in a fairly short period of time.
And basically, you don't want to be caught unawares.
You don't want to have $10,000 worth of Bitcoin that's now worth over $100,000,
but you only have $10,000 level of security around it.
Which actually did happen to me.
Before I went to cast a multi-seg, I, you know, how many it meant now?
I had six figures of Bitcoin on a single hardware wallet.
I backed up the private key, but that's what I had.
And I was like, shit, I need to do something about it.
I think I just went to Jeremy and said, help.
So that does happen.
Yeah.
So I also, I generally try to break things down into like three or four levels, right?
So there's pocket money, you know, maybe $100 to $1,000.
Like the amount of cash that you would carry around in your wallet, that's your spending money.
It's not going to have a substantial life impact on you if it's lost, stolen or whatever.
And you know, it's fine to just have that in a hot wallet, like on your phone, no big deal.
Next level is when you start getting into non-trivial amounts,
like I think like savings account level, investment account level, you know, thousands of dollars.
That's when you should at the very least invest $100 in a hardware device,
you know, whether it's treasure, ledger, cold card, they're all great.
There is no perfect hardware device.
I don't really recommend one over another because they all have trade-offs.
And the reason you should do that is that protects you from like 98% of the theft possibilities
by just getting your keys off the internet.
You're no longer having, you know, 8 billion people that can potentially knock on the door
and, you know, through the internet and try to access your keys in whatever way possible.
And the counterparty risk.
Yeah, absolutely.
A counterparty risk is something that very few people think about even today.
We can definitely get into that in a bit.
And then moving forward from that is like when you're at the point where you have a substantial percentage of your net worth,
that would meaningfully negatively impact your future and potentially your heirs future
if you're looking at like multi-generational wealth.
That's when you need to go to the level that you're eliminating single points of failure.
I think you can add in your mental health into that as well.
Absolutely.
One of the most common pieces of feedback we get and sort of compliments and praise for Casa
is that I sleep better at night now because people are no longer in their own, you know,
shoddily architected solution that they're the only ones that have, you know,
thought through the ramifications.
Another way of thinking about this that I really like to talk about.
Anyone who's been in the space long enough has likely heard the aviris enumerous line.
There's a strength in numbers, safety in numbers.
And I think that a lot of people don't apply that broadly enough.
People usually think that just means, oh, you know, Bitcoin is safe because of cryptography.
And that's true.
Like there's large numbers and entropy and randomness that secure a variety of aspects of the protocol.
But even stepping back from just the technical level and like thinking about security of me
and you and everyone else in the space and how we're architecting our storage,
it's similar to the way that we agree that open source software is a highly safe and secure thing.
It's not because the code is automatically better quality.
It's because when you have more eyes on something, you have diversity of perspectives and skills
and it's more likely that flaws in the system will be discovered
and someone will just raise their hand and say, hey, you should do something about this.
And so point being, it should be the same thing about how you architect your self-custody.
If you're the only one who has thought about and architected your self-custody,
you're probably missing something.
And this is not because you're dumb.
I mean, this is true of even experts like myself, you know, I'm not perfect.
I can miss things.
It's when you have a group, a team of people who are all looking at a problem and looking for flaws.
It's just more likely that you're going to find them and fix them ahead of time
and you'll be able to prevent catastrophes.
So this is why even at Casa, we've had people, experts at my level,
highly technical, nerdy folks who come to us and say, look, I had my own setup
and it was pretty good, but I was never actually sure that I was seeing all of the angles.
And now that I'm in a system that has had dozens of people looking at it
and countless people actually using it for, I guess, six years now,
this is an ongoing iterative process and it only gets better over time.
Can I talk you through a personal conundrum I have?
So it's pretty well known.
I'm a Casa customer.
99.9% of my Bitcoin is in that.
The rest is in a single-sig wallet.
It's pocket money, like you say.
But I started to think about my security because of violence quite a bit.
You run that GitHub.
What's your GitHub?
Yeah, it's the Bitcoin physical attacks log.
And some of them are fucking brutal.
Oh, yeah, like drills to people's knees.
And so I start to worry about that because I'm a known person in Bitcoin
and doing a podcast and traveling.
I don't tweet my travelers much anymore these days.
You've warned me about that, which was a good warning.
But I'm conscious of that.
And I've set my security up in a way whereby if somebody comes to my house
and wants to get something from me, they're going to get far more money
by taking the couch and the TV than they are from the Bitcoin.
Because it doesn't exist there.
I can't provide it.
They can get one key because I have my mobile phone with me.
But as we know, Casa is three or five.
They're not going to get two keys in that scenario.
But having really good security doesn't do anything about the fact that somebody doesn't believe you.
And so I've been talking to Danny quite a bit about this,
about I've been thinking about open sourcing and making public what my security is.
Like being really shout from the top.
This is exactly how my Bitcoin is set up.
Let me run you through.
In that for you to be able to access my Bitcoin,
you have to be aware that I cannot alone release my Bitcoin.
It takes three people.
Two of those people live a long way from me.
And one of them is...
I'm trying to be as detailed as I can without giving too much away.
It's based in an office environment.
So there's additional physical access restrictions.
So you have to get to both those...
You have to essentially kidnap me or someone,
get to both those locations,
get to specific people, one through an office full of people,
and then there's a massive time delay on one of the key signings, right?
That's as much information I'd give as possible.
There's a lot more to it.
But I was thinking of open sourcing and saying,
almost on my website,
this is the process you have to go through.
Having it...
Tweeting it out, having it on a laminated piece of paper at my fucking house
with a sign on my house is there's no Bitcoin stored here.
Like the shops, there's no cash.
And so if somebody comes in and says,
this is it, you cannot break through...
Do you understand the game theory of why I'm thinking of doing this?
And that's called how to rob Peter McCormick.
Yeah, how to rob my Bitcoin?
Yeah, no.
Okay, so...
Common saying,
security through obscurity isn't security.
So, you know, just...
If you have an insecure solution
and keeping the details of it private
doesn't actually make you any more secure.
You should be able to talk about the architecture of your security
without negatively actually impacting your actual threat model.
Now, you know, I wouldn't go so far as to say, like,
named individual X at this address has the key, right?
Because you can send people to all three locations.
Yeah, because then you're giving people an actual target,
which is not great.
That would, you know, decrease your robustness a bit.
Because we have actually seen organized crime now
that will spend weeks surveilling their targets
to try to figure out, you know, what are your patterns,
who are you related to, and who are you're dealing with,
who else might be a part of your security setup.
So, definitely just talking about it at the high level,
I think would be good.
Of course, feel free to let me review it first.
It seems a good idea, actually, how to rob people almost.
It's kind of like a triggering title, but...
Yeah, I think it's a good idea, as long as we pass it by a lot first.
We live in a country without...
Without great self-defense laws, right?
We have guns, but the guns are only owned by the criminals,
the police, you could maybe say the criminals as well.
You probably can't even store your guns
in an easily accessible location when they're loaded
so that you could actually use them, right?
So, the very few people who do have them,
who have a license, maybe you're a, you know,
a sporting shooter or a farmer,
they have, you have to have very tight security
in terms of where it's locked away, they do a lot of checks.
Yeah.
I'm basically never having a gun.
I'm not in my house, to be honest.
I know Americans don't like this,
but I'm kind of happy with being in an unarmed and unpoliced society.
Yeah, well, look, there's more to physical security
than just weapons.
That's only, that's like the last defense, like, oh shit,
the rest of your layers of security have all failed.
But if someone comes to my house with a gun
and I don't have a gun, that is a scenario I'm thinking about.
Yeah.
It could be a possibility.
Yeah.
Now, something else that comes up a lot that I thought
that you might have started leaning into
was the whole issue of duress wallets and paying people off.
Yeah.
So, I've thought about that as well.
The problem with the duress wallet and pay,
so yes to pay them off, but like a decoy wallet is like,
so even if you had like a whole Bitcoin on there,
they're like, yeah, we know you've got more than that.
Yeah.
So, is it a decoy, I don't think it is a decoy wallet.
I don't think you can have decoy wallets.
I think you can have ransoms, preloaded ransoms.
And almost if someone comes to you and said,
look, this is the scenario you have to go through for this,
very unlikely.
And if you torture me, if you get arrested,
you're going to face quite a bit of time in jail.
Take this and fuck off.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I guess...
But I don't want to even do that.
Yeah.
I don't advocate either way because really I think
that it's an intractable problem.
And the reason for that is that you're speculating
on the knowledge and psychology of a potential future attacker
that you know nothing about.
You don't know their motivations.
You don't know what they know about you.
You don't know what they're looking for.
Basically, you don't know whether giving them a token offering
will appease them or piss them off even more.
Or send them back in a month later and say,
if you reloaded it for me.
Yeah.
You know, it's definitely something I think a lot about.
I think I might write it up and send it to you and say,
what do you think about this?
Yeah.
But I also feel like I'm at that point.
Yeah.
One thing that concerns me,
I think people think you have more Bitcoin than you have.
Of course.
I mean, I know for a fact there's people who think
I've got more than I have because they said how wealthy
they think I am.
And I'm like, you're a long way off the mark.
I've been in a five-year lawsuit.
Fuck off.
But it doesn't matter what you've got.
It's always what they think you've got.
So, that's a problem.
But there is scenarios where Bitcoin, you know,
Donald Trump does come to power and says,
you know what I say, he's going to buy a million Bitcoin
and then Bitcoin shoots up to one, two million
pound of coin.
And even if you've got five, you are.
Yeah.
Every whole coin is going to be a target.
Every whole, yeah.
And so then what do you do about this?
When do you think about personal security?
I mean, we see it in the Bitcoin events.
People have personal security these days.
When is that a relevant thing to have?
Yeah.
There's an interesting thing that, well,
this is why I maintain that list of physical attacks
is because I'm just trying to see what the trend is,
what the risk level is, what the criminal element
of society is viewing Bitcoin as, you know,
the ROI of wrench attacking us.
And every time that a wrench attack succeeds,
it's bad for all of us because it's teaching the criminals
that this is worth their time, that it's easier to bust
a Bitcoiners kneecap than to break into a bank
or an armored truck or whatever.
And security is always an ongoing thing.
But, you know, when I was at the conference yesterday,
I was just sitting in the middle of the crowd,
actually next to Caitlin Long, and, you know,
we would have a few people come by from time to time.
They're like, hey, nice to see you and so on.
And then I noticed this wave of people
just moving in one direction.
I'm like, what's going on?
You know, is like, is someone about to get hurt?
And I look over and it's Michael Saylor.
And it's a crushing mass of people just moving in on him.
I'm like, you know what?
I do not envy him.
Like, I don't want to be that level of recognizable.
Yeah.
If I've got 10 billion...
Fair trade-off.
Yeah, fair trade-off.
So, yeah, so what is this, before we look at this,
what is the trend that you're starting to see?
Yeah.
Well, there's some links at the top to a presentation
by, I think, Nigel Walsh.
I might have his name on it.
Oh, the slides here.
But he did a good breakdown and like had some charts.
And the short version is that there seems to be
a pretty strong correlation between the price of Bitcoin
and the rate of physical attacks.
Okay.
And this is sensible because, of course,
whenever we have a bull market
and everybody is getting FOMO
and your taxi driver is talking about Bitcoin,
that's when the criminals are starting to think about it more
and they're also looking to, you know,
find targets that they can score against.
And is there a pattern to how...
Is it just violence and extortion?
There are certainly things that are more common.
So the worst things that you can do
are to engage in face-to-face trades.
That's where a lot of this happens is someone's just like,
hey, I want to buy a bunch of Bitcoin from you
and then they kind of take you to a hotel room
and tie you up and that's the end of that.
Probably the next most problematic one
is generally people with large social media
following influencers who are flashing their wealth.
They're getting hit a lot.
Other than that, it seems to be kind of random.
You know, just people who have amassed a lot of Bitcoin
and they may not have as big of a social media presence,
but like another thing is, I think it's in...
Is it Sweden or Norway where they have basically no privacy
and you can find where anybody lives
because it's public record.
Oh, you can do that in the UK.
Yeah, the UK is not good for that.
So those countries are having more incidents as well.
Interestingly, when you look through this,
I don't feel like I've seen an incident of anyone in our circle,
our known circle of Bitcoin who have been done.
Well, also the vast majority of the attacks that are happening
are not reported.
The vast majority.
And so do you know of this?
Yes.
And would you say this is because of embarrassment?
Fear.
Fear.
We've had clients at Casa attacked physically.
And they, first of all, a lot of people don't even want
to go to law enforcement because that can create public records.
And then if they're public about it,
that can still make you a target.
Other people might see and say,
oh, I'm going to go attack them.
And so I think one of the recent news stories
that broke of the organized crime gang
that was going all over America hitting different people,
they actually hit this one woman twice.
It was like, first they simjacked her and drained her coinbase account.
And then as a part of that, they went through her email.
I think they realized she also had a Gemini account or something.
And then they physically went to her house and put a gun to her head.
And that was an interesting case because she was so distraught
after already having been wiped out on one account
that she was like, kill me.
You can't have it.
You're not giving it up.
And they actually left without taking anything.
Damn.
That was ballsy.
Yeah.
So knowing what you know about the industry,
would you say I'm a solid potential target?
I would say the vast majority of public figures in Bitcoin
are underprepared.
I've actually gone through and I put my black hat on.
And I've tried to find a number of people who are well known in this space
of like, if I was an attacker, would I be able to hit them?
A lot of people are very easy to find.
And I'm actually surprised that we haven't heard of more people getting hit.
And I do think it's only a matter of time.
Because I'm in the UK.
Very easy to find where you live in the UK.
Public records because I own companies.
So that I can't do anything about.
It's very, very difficult.
Plus, people know the town I live in and I'm not moving.
So I have to accept that's a reality now.
I do have a good home security in terms of cameras and alarms.
And I do have good Bitcoin security and I can't get to it.
The physical security is a completely separate game.
And that's what I think a lot of people aren't really talking about.
Yeah.
What I just, I don't think I am prepared for is the physical security side
and the potential violence for people who think they can get something they can't.
That's my, that's my only scenario I think about.
I don't really think about the rest.
And I don't know what the solution is living in the UK when you are a public profile
and you can't have weapons and people can find when you are.
Is it just, do I just need to hire security?
I mean, I think hiring security people is basically one of the last things that you do
after you've done all of the other low hanging fruit.
So, you know, I have a whole article that I've published about physical security.
A separate one about guns.
So you can, you can skip the one about firearms and home defense.
But look, there's multiple things that you can do around your home to make you less attractive as a target.
So, you know, fences, dogs, hardened doors, windows, alarm systems.
I can send you the link to the article.
I've got it all listed out there, but you know, security is a multi-layered system.
So, you know, there is no one single thing that you can do.
But also, you want to get a really dark, your family is that's another issue is like, what are you going to do?
You're not going to hire physical security for each one of your kids to follow them around 24 seven
and make sure that nobody kidnaps them and takes them hostage.
Because that's a situation where your Bitcoin security becomes almost irrelevant because you still have full control of everything.
It's your child.
It's your loved one that you don't have control over.
Then the attacker has a...
It's leverage.
They have leverage, but they also have, they've gone up the risk profile in terms of the punishment should they be caught
because there's one going in the house and hitting you with a wrench the second kidnap in a child
and issuing a ransom note.
So they've got a risk.
They've also got a time risk because they have to hold that hostage for a certain period of time.
Yeah.
And there have been a couple of incidents like that.
It feels more like a South American thing.
Yeah.
You hear a lot of kidnapings for ransom with like professional footballers.
Yeah.
There was actually an incident, I think in Hong Kong a few months ago where some people actually kidnapped like a toddler,
but it ended well.
It ended well.
They actually got caught within like a day.
So arrest two women.
Hong Kong police arrest two women over allegedly abducting three Rob Boy for $5 million crypto ransom.
I mean, could just sell or get rid of all my Bitcoin.
Go pour.
Yeah.
There was an England one down there.
I saw that machete one.
Ramesh.
I got this weird email recently.
Shall I talk about that one, Donny?
I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about that one.
Yeah.
I got an email from somebody who told me they'd been kidnapped to...
I can't remember exactly.
Do you've got the email?
I wouldn't be able to find the email.
But I think the general idea was he'd been kidnapped and like driven to some weird location.
Threatened for his...
The way it read and I could be totally wrong.
This might be being paranoid.
Is it actually read like he was trying to fish for information of Peter and he was making up a story?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was really weird.
I was like, because they were kind of like asking for my advice and I was like, well,
one go to the police and like all I can say is like for my own personal security,
I don't have any access to my Bitcoin.
It's all controlled by other entities and people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Again, that was being the honest thing in case this was somebody thinking.
Here's the honest thing.
Rather than going, you know, I've got all in a single wallet and the keys printed on a piece of paper in my pocket.
Like, you know, what's this?
So this just happened.
Three guys physically robbed me at my home.
They were armed with machetes.
They knew I had a crypto.
They knew I had crypto and knew where I lived.
They forced me to open my ledger and then transferred all my crypto out.
Look, I didn't get stabbed.
I'm still in a state of shock.
That's tricky.
Yeah.
I think about it a lot.
I do think about it a lot.
And I guess, I mean, Casa offers a premium service now where you can run through and consult on the security.
Yeah.
Our private client offering is expanding to be, you know, security in general beyond just your keys, you know,
thinking about the privacy ramifications, operational security, physical security,
because it has, as we have learned, it's becoming about more than just the keys themselves.
It's really about many different aspects of your life.
How much do you guys think about AI and the use of identity to fake videos?
Because one of the things Casa has is that you can sign a key for me if I go on a call, etc.
Will that actually destroy that as a service?
I mean, in a sense, however, there are other things that you can do.
You know, there's multiple types of authentication.
You know, the video call is who you are, almost biometric type of authentication.
And that's what AI is pretty much on the verge of destroying the sort of believability that you can believe anything that you see or hear through an electronic device.
But there's still the things like something that you know is another type of authentication.
So if you have a secret, you know, some sort of word, passphrase, whatever,
or the fact that, you know, we may just have a conversation with you to, you know, talk about things that only we would know about each other.
You know, that's other ways of authenticating that, you know, you're not North Korean hacker.
So it is a constantly evolving landscape, though.
Do you also have keywords that, like, we know that you're being held against your will and doing this call?
Yeah, yeah, we definitely offer the ability to have dress words.
We offer the ability to have other contacts, friends and family on file that we'll reach out to, you know, out of band for them to contact and authenticate.
So it is about having multiple ways to authenticate that our clients are who they say they are.
If you get on a call and someone uses one of those words, what do you actually do?
We then enact whatever protocol we've set up beforehand, which may be, you know, contacting the friends, family, law enforcement, so on.
Yeah, because you could put them at risk, further risk.
But that's a really tricky thing to navigate for you because if it's like you need to sign a transaction which will allow them to spend their Bitcoin
and you don't do it, you're also putting them at, like, additional physical risk potentially.
Well, you wouldn't use the dress word.
Yeah.
You also have to remember that there's time delays.
We don't sign anything without at least multiple days of time delay.
Yeah.
Which the attacker will be told or learn in the process.
Yeah.
So it often will then come down to the sophistication, patience, intelligence of the attacker.
Like a machete attack sounds like a...
That's an in and out.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Where somebody surveilled you for a period of time.
And has the trend on these physical attacks increased?
With the exchange rate, it tends to ebb and flow very similarly, maybe a little bit of lag here and there.
Yeah.
Another thing I've been thinking about is if you had say, say you've migrated to the States, you're a multi-sig.
You've got a car, so three or five, but your net wealth has ballooned to like a hundred million or something ridiculous.
Are you an idiot to just have one, it all in one, three or five multi-sig, even though it's pretty damn secure, but you haven't really distributed your money.
And what do you think of these multi-jurisdiction custody solutions where you almost like offloading the keys to these other entities?
Yeah.
So we have a mantra of diversify your keys, not your coins.
There's a very common trope that we've seen if people have a lot of Bitcoin and they're not into multi-sig, then they probably have like 10 ledgers and 10 treasures or whatever, and they have a little bit on each one.
And here's the way I think about that.
Yes, you are diversifying risk if you're putting them on different devices and throwing them all over the place.
So you are correct in that you are decreasing the chance of a single failure being catastrophic.
However, what I think a lot of people miss is that you're increasing the chance of having a small loss because you have one or two failures and that results in some percentage of your funds being lost.
So we are firm believers in having one well-constructed, well-architected, well-thought-out setup.
I forget if it's a Henry Ford quote, but they say don't put your eggs in one basket, right?
But I think it was Henry Ford or someone similar who said, no, actually you should put all of your eggs in one basket and you should watch it very, very carefully.
That's how you know that they're going to be safe.
But you don't think maybe, I mean, say you had a billion, should you have five sets of 200 million multi-sigs?
You could, but right, you're increasing complexity.
So it's just a matter of like how much complexity do you want to manage?
Now, if you're at that level, you really should have a team of people who are managing the complexity for you.
So it's certainly more feasible.
It's like a Bitcoin family office.
Yes, and look, we work with family offices and multi-sig is great for family offices.
You have multiple employees, hopefully they're distributed and you can have multiple key managers.
So look, Michael Saylor doesn't manage his own keys and I don't expect him to.
Yeah, I have been thinking about that.
Just even getting it away from being a thing I managed to somebody else, like that's possibly something you have to do 10, 20 years down the line.
And then you have to think about inheritance and really interesting point of inheritance.
I've been thinking about a lot.
There's actually two really important parts to inheritance.
One, that when you die, your heirs can receive your Bitcoin.
But two, are they capable of managing it?
Well, you got to start them young.
You really can't have your family be ignorant of the generational wealth that you're building for them.
I lost my kids in a boat accident.
Where should people go for additional resources on this?
Well, my educational resources are at bitcoin.page.
You can check out all of the offerings that Casa has at Casa.io, C-A-S-A.io.
And we've rolled out some pretty cool stuff just in the past few months.
We rolled out what I believe is the easiest to use inheritance offering in existence.
Basically, we have some encrypted key sharing where it's as simple as getting your beneficiaries
to scan some QR codes back and forth with you so that they can be onboarded into your keyset.
And then there's some additional game theory around like how the actual inheritance process plays out with time locks and such.
It's like a six month thing, is that correct?
Yeah.
And then we just announced a couple of days ago that we are the first ever to figure out how to secure Bitcoin private keys
inside of a YubiKey.
And a YubiKey is generally an enterprise security device.
It just looks like a little USB dongle.
And there are nearly 30 million of them in use around the world.
It's a decade old company that has been doing enterprise authentication and security for a long time.
It has a great reputation.
And just because of some new technology, past key technology that is being pushed forward as a standard by both Google and Apple,
and YubiKey just released a new version of their firmware that supports this,
we figured out how to use that as an envelope for actually securely storing Bitcoin private keys.
And why would you use the YubiKey?
It's really, it's meant to be pushing some of the optionality of what our clients can do more towards the convenience spectrum.
Yeah.
Because...
It's just easier than having a ledger.
You know how difficult ledgers and treasures and cold cards are.
These are generally devices, they're built for nerds.
And I don't have any problem navigating using them,
but the sort of average non-technical person can feel overwhelmed at the complexity of having a device where,
you know, you have to manage the firmware updates on it.
You know, sometimes things break from time to time.
And it can be a lot of steps to actually go through the process of transacting,
you know, signing partially signed Bitcoin transactions with them.
So how do you sign a transaction on a YubiKey?
I mean, look, a YubiKey is just a little USB dongle with one button on it.
So when you're signing a transaction on the Casa platform,
it's as simple as, you know, plugging it into your laptop.
You know, we still send you like the email link with the URL.
And it loads up our site and you have to realize that past keys bind themselves to the domain.
So it's basically phishing proof because it's only going to work on the Casa domain.
And all you have to do is, you know, tap on the button when it asks you to authenticate.
Would you have that as, you know, if Casa have three or five ones, the mobile ones, you,
would you have three YubiKeys or is it like a YubiKey, a ledger and a treasure?
I, as always, diversity, you know, strength through diversity.
And, you know, you can have the YubiKey as maybe one of your more common, easily accessible signers.
And it doesn't hold the private key of what was previously a ledger.
It's its own private key.
Correct.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
All right.
We should check that out.
A lot of amazing.
Also go to lopp.net.
Loads of cool resources there.
Appreciate you, man.
From third interview to maybe the third from last.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you.